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Contradiction proof for inequality of P and NP?


Problem with my proof that NP = coNP?Contradiction between best-case running time of insertion sort and $nlog n$ lower bound?Logarithmic Randomness is Necessary for PCP TheoremTrouble seeing the contradiction in diagonalization proofWhat is wrong with this conditional proof of P=NP?Is it always possible to have one part of the reduction?If everyone believes P ≠ NP, why is everyone sceptical of proof attempts for P ≠ NP?Finding a complexity by solving inequality






.everyoneloves__top-leaderboard:empty,.everyoneloves__mid-leaderboard:empty,.everyoneloves__bot-mid-leaderboard:empty
margin-bottom:0;









10














$begingroup$


I'm trying to argue that N is not equal NP using hierarchy theorems. This is my argument, but when I showed it to our teacher and after deduction, he said that this is problematic where I can't find a compelling reason to accept.




We start off by assuming that $P=NP$. Then it yields that $mathitSAT in P$ which itself then follows that $mathitSAT in TIME(n^k)$. As stands, we are able to do reduce every language in $NP$ to $mathitSAT$. Therefore, $NP subseteq TIME(n^k)$. On the contrary, the time hierarchy theorem states that there should be a language $A in TIME(n^k+1)$, that's not in $TIME(n^k)$. This would lead us to conclude that $A$ is in $P$, while not in $NP$, which is a contradiction to our first assumption. So, we came to the conclusion that $P neq NP$.




Is there something wrong with my proof?










share|cite|improve this question











$endgroup$











  • 2




    $begingroup$
    Please, write something like $mathitSAT$ instead of $SAT$. As Leslie Lamport wrote in his original LaTeX book, the latter stands for S times A times T.
    $endgroup$
    – Oliphaunt
    Apr 25 at 22:31











  • $begingroup$
    Better yet, use the complexity package and simply write SAT. (I guess that's not available on this stack, though.)
    $endgroup$
    – Oliphaunt
    Apr 25 at 22:39










  • $begingroup$
    @Oliphaunt Why not suggest an edit when you can improve the post? Although I must say that here the difference (if any) is a lot more subtle than I'd expect.
    $endgroup$
    – Discrete lizard
    Apr 26 at 7:29







  • 1




    $begingroup$
    @Discretelizard I often do, but it was "too much work" this time (i was / am on mobile). Entering all those $ and is finicky work. I chose to educate instead. (This decision may not have been entirely rational.)
    $endgroup$
    – Oliphaunt
    Apr 26 at 11:38

















10














$begingroup$


I'm trying to argue that N is not equal NP using hierarchy theorems. This is my argument, but when I showed it to our teacher and after deduction, he said that this is problematic where I can't find a compelling reason to accept.




We start off by assuming that $P=NP$. Then it yields that $mathitSAT in P$ which itself then follows that $mathitSAT in TIME(n^k)$. As stands, we are able to do reduce every language in $NP$ to $mathitSAT$. Therefore, $NP subseteq TIME(n^k)$. On the contrary, the time hierarchy theorem states that there should be a language $A in TIME(n^k+1)$, that's not in $TIME(n^k)$. This would lead us to conclude that $A$ is in $P$, while not in $NP$, which is a contradiction to our first assumption. So, we came to the conclusion that $P neq NP$.




Is there something wrong with my proof?










share|cite|improve this question











$endgroup$











  • 2




    $begingroup$
    Please, write something like $mathitSAT$ instead of $SAT$. As Leslie Lamport wrote in his original LaTeX book, the latter stands for S times A times T.
    $endgroup$
    – Oliphaunt
    Apr 25 at 22:31











  • $begingroup$
    Better yet, use the complexity package and simply write SAT. (I guess that's not available on this stack, though.)
    $endgroup$
    – Oliphaunt
    Apr 25 at 22:39










  • $begingroup$
    @Oliphaunt Why not suggest an edit when you can improve the post? Although I must say that here the difference (if any) is a lot more subtle than I'd expect.
    $endgroup$
    – Discrete lizard
    Apr 26 at 7:29







  • 1




    $begingroup$
    @Discretelizard I often do, but it was "too much work" this time (i was / am on mobile). Entering all those $ and is finicky work. I chose to educate instead. (This decision may not have been entirely rational.)
    $endgroup$
    – Oliphaunt
    Apr 26 at 11:38













10












10








10


4



$begingroup$


I'm trying to argue that N is not equal NP using hierarchy theorems. This is my argument, but when I showed it to our teacher and after deduction, he said that this is problematic where I can't find a compelling reason to accept.




We start off by assuming that $P=NP$. Then it yields that $mathitSAT in P$ which itself then follows that $mathitSAT in TIME(n^k)$. As stands, we are able to do reduce every language in $NP$ to $mathitSAT$. Therefore, $NP subseteq TIME(n^k)$. On the contrary, the time hierarchy theorem states that there should be a language $A in TIME(n^k+1)$, that's not in $TIME(n^k)$. This would lead us to conclude that $A$ is in $P$, while not in $NP$, which is a contradiction to our first assumption. So, we came to the conclusion that $P neq NP$.




Is there something wrong with my proof?










share|cite|improve this question











$endgroup$




I'm trying to argue that N is not equal NP using hierarchy theorems. This is my argument, but when I showed it to our teacher and after deduction, he said that this is problematic where I can't find a compelling reason to accept.




We start off by assuming that $P=NP$. Then it yields that $mathitSAT in P$ which itself then follows that $mathitSAT in TIME(n^k)$. As stands, we are able to do reduce every language in $NP$ to $mathitSAT$. Therefore, $NP subseteq TIME(n^k)$. On the contrary, the time hierarchy theorem states that there should be a language $A in TIME(n^k+1)$, that's not in $TIME(n^k)$. This would lead us to conclude that $A$ is in $P$, while not in $NP$, which is a contradiction to our first assumption. So, we came to the conclusion that $P neq NP$.




Is there something wrong with my proof?







complexity-theory time-complexity p-vs-np






share|cite|improve this question















share|cite|improve this question













share|cite|improve this question




share|cite|improve this question



share|cite|improve this question








edited Apr 26 at 7:29









Discrete lizard

5,3471 gold badge16 silver badges42 bronze badges




5,3471 gold badge16 silver badges42 bronze badges










asked Apr 25 at 4:12









inverted_indexinverted_index

1911 silver badge7 bronze badges




1911 silver badge7 bronze badges










  • 2




    $begingroup$
    Please, write something like $mathitSAT$ instead of $SAT$. As Leslie Lamport wrote in his original LaTeX book, the latter stands for S times A times T.
    $endgroup$
    – Oliphaunt
    Apr 25 at 22:31











  • $begingroup$
    Better yet, use the complexity package and simply write SAT. (I guess that's not available on this stack, though.)
    $endgroup$
    – Oliphaunt
    Apr 25 at 22:39










  • $begingroup$
    @Oliphaunt Why not suggest an edit when you can improve the post? Although I must say that here the difference (if any) is a lot more subtle than I'd expect.
    $endgroup$
    – Discrete lizard
    Apr 26 at 7:29







  • 1




    $begingroup$
    @Discretelizard I often do, but it was "too much work" this time (i was / am on mobile). Entering all those $ and is finicky work. I chose to educate instead. (This decision may not have been entirely rational.)
    $endgroup$
    – Oliphaunt
    Apr 26 at 11:38












  • 2




    $begingroup$
    Please, write something like $mathitSAT$ instead of $SAT$. As Leslie Lamport wrote in his original LaTeX book, the latter stands for S times A times T.
    $endgroup$
    – Oliphaunt
    Apr 25 at 22:31











  • $begingroup$
    Better yet, use the complexity package and simply write SAT. (I guess that's not available on this stack, though.)
    $endgroup$
    – Oliphaunt
    Apr 25 at 22:39










  • $begingroup$
    @Oliphaunt Why not suggest an edit when you can improve the post? Although I must say that here the difference (if any) is a lot more subtle than I'd expect.
    $endgroup$
    – Discrete lizard
    Apr 26 at 7:29







  • 1




    $begingroup$
    @Discretelizard I often do, but it was "too much work" this time (i was / am on mobile). Entering all those $ and is finicky work. I chose to educate instead. (This decision may not have been entirely rational.)
    $endgroup$
    – Oliphaunt
    Apr 26 at 11:38







2




2




$begingroup$
Please, write something like $mathitSAT$ instead of $SAT$. As Leslie Lamport wrote in his original LaTeX book, the latter stands for S times A times T.
$endgroup$
– Oliphaunt
Apr 25 at 22:31





$begingroup$
Please, write something like $mathitSAT$ instead of $SAT$. As Leslie Lamport wrote in his original LaTeX book, the latter stands for S times A times T.
$endgroup$
– Oliphaunt
Apr 25 at 22:31













$begingroup$
Better yet, use the complexity package and simply write SAT. (I guess that's not available on this stack, though.)
$endgroup$
– Oliphaunt
Apr 25 at 22:39




$begingroup$
Better yet, use the complexity package and simply write SAT. (I guess that's not available on this stack, though.)
$endgroup$
– Oliphaunt
Apr 25 at 22:39












$begingroup$
@Oliphaunt Why not suggest an edit when you can improve the post? Although I must say that here the difference (if any) is a lot more subtle than I'd expect.
$endgroup$
– Discrete lizard
Apr 26 at 7:29





$begingroup$
@Oliphaunt Why not suggest an edit when you can improve the post? Although I must say that here the difference (if any) is a lot more subtle than I'd expect.
$endgroup$
– Discrete lizard
Apr 26 at 7:29





1




1




$begingroup$
@Discretelizard I often do, but it was "too much work" this time (i was / am on mobile). Entering all those $ and is finicky work. I chose to educate instead. (This decision may not have been entirely rational.)
$endgroup$
– Oliphaunt
Apr 26 at 11:38




$begingroup$
@Discretelizard I often do, but it was "too much work" this time (i was / am on mobile). Entering all those $ and is finicky work. I chose to educate instead. (This decision may not have been entirely rational.)
$endgroup$
– Oliphaunt
Apr 26 at 11:38










2 Answers
2






active

oldest

votes


















55
















$begingroup$


Then it yields that $SAT in P$ which itself then follows that $SAT in TIME(n^k)$.




Sure.




As stands, we are able to do reduce every language in $NP$ to $SAT$. Therefore, $NP subseteq TIME(n^k)$.




No. Polynomial time reductions aren't free. We can say it takes $O(n^r(L))$ time to reduce language $L$ to $SAT$, where $r(L)$ is the exponent in the polynomial time reduction used. This is where your argument falls apart. There is no finite $k$ such that for all $L in NP$ we have $r(L) < k$. At least this does not follow from $P = NP$ and would be a much stronger statement.



And this stronger statement does indeed conflict with the time hierarchy theorem, which tells us that $P$ can not collapse into $TIME(n^k)$, let alone all of $NP$.






share|cite|improve this answer












$endgroup$










  • 1




    $begingroup$
    It's not only the time for the reduction itself. You could reduce to a make larger problem. If I can solve X in O (n^5), and I can reduce a problem in Y in O (n^6) to a O(n^3) sized instance of X, then I need O (n^15) in total.
    $endgroup$
    – gnasher729
    Apr 27 at 11:21










  • $begingroup$
    Amusingly, this argument applies to PTIME-complete problems as well, e.g. HORNSAT, which is solvable in linear time (but not all problems in P are linear time).
    $endgroup$
    – cody
    Apr 30 at 19:40


















8
















$begingroup$

Suppose that $mathrm3SATinmathrmNTIME[n^k]$. By the nondeterministic version of the time hierarchy theorem, for any $r$, there is a problem $X_rinmathrmNTIME[n^r]$ that is not in $mathrmNTIME[n^r-1]$. This is an unconditional result that doesn't depend on any kind of assumption such as $mathrmPneqmathrmNP$



Choose any $r>k$. Suppose we have a deterministic reduction from $X_r$ to $mathrm3SAT$ that runs in time $n^t$. It produces a $mathrm3SAT$ instance of size at most $n^t$, which can be solved in time at most $(n^t)^k=n^tk$. By our choice of $X_r$, we must have $tk>r-1$, so $t>(r+1)/k$. This function grows without bound with $r$.



This means that there is no bound on how long it can take to reduce an arbitrary $mathrmNP$ problem to $mathrm3SAT$. Even if $mathrm3SATin mathrmP$, there's still no bound on how long those reductions can take. So, in particular, even if $mathrm3SATinmathrmDTIME[n^k']$ for some $k'$, we can't conclude that $mathrmNPsubseteqmathrmDTIME[n^k']$, or even $mathrmNPsubseteqmathrmDTIME[n^k'']$ for some $k''>k'$.






share|cite|improve this answer










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    2 Answers
    2






    active

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    2 Answers
    2






    active

    oldest

    votes









    active

    oldest

    votes






    active

    oldest

    votes









    55
















    $begingroup$


    Then it yields that $SAT in P$ which itself then follows that $SAT in TIME(n^k)$.




    Sure.




    As stands, we are able to do reduce every language in $NP$ to $SAT$. Therefore, $NP subseteq TIME(n^k)$.




    No. Polynomial time reductions aren't free. We can say it takes $O(n^r(L))$ time to reduce language $L$ to $SAT$, where $r(L)$ is the exponent in the polynomial time reduction used. This is where your argument falls apart. There is no finite $k$ such that for all $L in NP$ we have $r(L) < k$. At least this does not follow from $P = NP$ and would be a much stronger statement.



    And this stronger statement does indeed conflict with the time hierarchy theorem, which tells us that $P$ can not collapse into $TIME(n^k)$, let alone all of $NP$.






    share|cite|improve this answer












    $endgroup$










    • 1




      $begingroup$
      It's not only the time for the reduction itself. You could reduce to a make larger problem. If I can solve X in O (n^5), and I can reduce a problem in Y in O (n^6) to a O(n^3) sized instance of X, then I need O (n^15) in total.
      $endgroup$
      – gnasher729
      Apr 27 at 11:21










    • $begingroup$
      Amusingly, this argument applies to PTIME-complete problems as well, e.g. HORNSAT, which is solvable in linear time (but not all problems in P are linear time).
      $endgroup$
      – cody
      Apr 30 at 19:40















    55
















    $begingroup$


    Then it yields that $SAT in P$ which itself then follows that $SAT in TIME(n^k)$.




    Sure.




    As stands, we are able to do reduce every language in $NP$ to $SAT$. Therefore, $NP subseteq TIME(n^k)$.




    No. Polynomial time reductions aren't free. We can say it takes $O(n^r(L))$ time to reduce language $L$ to $SAT$, where $r(L)$ is the exponent in the polynomial time reduction used. This is where your argument falls apart. There is no finite $k$ such that for all $L in NP$ we have $r(L) < k$. At least this does not follow from $P = NP$ and would be a much stronger statement.



    And this stronger statement does indeed conflict with the time hierarchy theorem, which tells us that $P$ can not collapse into $TIME(n^k)$, let alone all of $NP$.






    share|cite|improve this answer












    $endgroup$










    • 1




      $begingroup$
      It's not only the time for the reduction itself. You could reduce to a make larger problem. If I can solve X in O (n^5), and I can reduce a problem in Y in O (n^6) to a O(n^3) sized instance of X, then I need O (n^15) in total.
      $endgroup$
      – gnasher729
      Apr 27 at 11:21










    • $begingroup$
      Amusingly, this argument applies to PTIME-complete problems as well, e.g. HORNSAT, which is solvable in linear time (but not all problems in P are linear time).
      $endgroup$
      – cody
      Apr 30 at 19:40













    55














    55










    55







    $begingroup$


    Then it yields that $SAT in P$ which itself then follows that $SAT in TIME(n^k)$.




    Sure.




    As stands, we are able to do reduce every language in $NP$ to $SAT$. Therefore, $NP subseteq TIME(n^k)$.




    No. Polynomial time reductions aren't free. We can say it takes $O(n^r(L))$ time to reduce language $L$ to $SAT$, where $r(L)$ is the exponent in the polynomial time reduction used. This is where your argument falls apart. There is no finite $k$ such that for all $L in NP$ we have $r(L) < k$. At least this does not follow from $P = NP$ and would be a much stronger statement.



    And this stronger statement does indeed conflict with the time hierarchy theorem, which tells us that $P$ can not collapse into $TIME(n^k)$, let alone all of $NP$.






    share|cite|improve this answer












    $endgroup$




    Then it yields that $SAT in P$ which itself then follows that $SAT in TIME(n^k)$.




    Sure.




    As stands, we are able to do reduce every language in $NP$ to $SAT$. Therefore, $NP subseteq TIME(n^k)$.




    No. Polynomial time reductions aren't free. We can say it takes $O(n^r(L))$ time to reduce language $L$ to $SAT$, where $r(L)$ is the exponent in the polynomial time reduction used. This is where your argument falls apart. There is no finite $k$ such that for all $L in NP$ we have $r(L) < k$. At least this does not follow from $P = NP$ and would be a much stronger statement.



    And this stronger statement does indeed conflict with the time hierarchy theorem, which tells us that $P$ can not collapse into $TIME(n^k)$, let alone all of $NP$.







    share|cite|improve this answer















    share|cite|improve this answer




    share|cite|improve this answer



    share|cite|improve this answer








    edited Apr 25 at 5:49

























    answered Apr 25 at 4:38









    orlporlp

    7,3361 gold badge11 silver badges28 bronze badges




    7,3361 gold badge11 silver badges28 bronze badges










    • 1




      $begingroup$
      It's not only the time for the reduction itself. You could reduce to a make larger problem. If I can solve X in O (n^5), and I can reduce a problem in Y in O (n^6) to a O(n^3) sized instance of X, then I need O (n^15) in total.
      $endgroup$
      – gnasher729
      Apr 27 at 11:21










    • $begingroup$
      Amusingly, this argument applies to PTIME-complete problems as well, e.g. HORNSAT, which is solvable in linear time (but not all problems in P are linear time).
      $endgroup$
      – cody
      Apr 30 at 19:40












    • 1




      $begingroup$
      It's not only the time for the reduction itself. You could reduce to a make larger problem. If I can solve X in O (n^5), and I can reduce a problem in Y in O (n^6) to a O(n^3) sized instance of X, then I need O (n^15) in total.
      $endgroup$
      – gnasher729
      Apr 27 at 11:21










    • $begingroup$
      Amusingly, this argument applies to PTIME-complete problems as well, e.g. HORNSAT, which is solvable in linear time (but not all problems in P are linear time).
      $endgroup$
      – cody
      Apr 30 at 19:40







    1




    1




    $begingroup$
    It's not only the time for the reduction itself. You could reduce to a make larger problem. If I can solve X in O (n^5), and I can reduce a problem in Y in O (n^6) to a O(n^3) sized instance of X, then I need O (n^15) in total.
    $endgroup$
    – gnasher729
    Apr 27 at 11:21




    $begingroup$
    It's not only the time for the reduction itself. You could reduce to a make larger problem. If I can solve X in O (n^5), and I can reduce a problem in Y in O (n^6) to a O(n^3) sized instance of X, then I need O (n^15) in total.
    $endgroup$
    – gnasher729
    Apr 27 at 11:21












    $begingroup$
    Amusingly, this argument applies to PTIME-complete problems as well, e.g. HORNSAT, which is solvable in linear time (but not all problems in P are linear time).
    $endgroup$
    – cody
    Apr 30 at 19:40




    $begingroup$
    Amusingly, this argument applies to PTIME-complete problems as well, e.g. HORNSAT, which is solvable in linear time (but not all problems in P are linear time).
    $endgroup$
    – cody
    Apr 30 at 19:40













    8
















    $begingroup$

    Suppose that $mathrm3SATinmathrmNTIME[n^k]$. By the nondeterministic version of the time hierarchy theorem, for any $r$, there is a problem $X_rinmathrmNTIME[n^r]$ that is not in $mathrmNTIME[n^r-1]$. This is an unconditional result that doesn't depend on any kind of assumption such as $mathrmPneqmathrmNP$



    Choose any $r>k$. Suppose we have a deterministic reduction from $X_r$ to $mathrm3SAT$ that runs in time $n^t$. It produces a $mathrm3SAT$ instance of size at most $n^t$, which can be solved in time at most $(n^t)^k=n^tk$. By our choice of $X_r$, we must have $tk>r-1$, so $t>(r+1)/k$. This function grows without bound with $r$.



    This means that there is no bound on how long it can take to reduce an arbitrary $mathrmNP$ problem to $mathrm3SAT$. Even if $mathrm3SATin mathrmP$, there's still no bound on how long those reductions can take. So, in particular, even if $mathrm3SATinmathrmDTIME[n^k']$ for some $k'$, we can't conclude that $mathrmNPsubseteqmathrmDTIME[n^k']$, or even $mathrmNPsubseteqmathrmDTIME[n^k'']$ for some $k''>k'$.






    share|cite|improve this answer










    $endgroup$



















      8
















      $begingroup$

      Suppose that $mathrm3SATinmathrmNTIME[n^k]$. By the nondeterministic version of the time hierarchy theorem, for any $r$, there is a problem $X_rinmathrmNTIME[n^r]$ that is not in $mathrmNTIME[n^r-1]$. This is an unconditional result that doesn't depend on any kind of assumption such as $mathrmPneqmathrmNP$



      Choose any $r>k$. Suppose we have a deterministic reduction from $X_r$ to $mathrm3SAT$ that runs in time $n^t$. It produces a $mathrm3SAT$ instance of size at most $n^t$, which can be solved in time at most $(n^t)^k=n^tk$. By our choice of $X_r$, we must have $tk>r-1$, so $t>(r+1)/k$. This function grows without bound with $r$.



      This means that there is no bound on how long it can take to reduce an arbitrary $mathrmNP$ problem to $mathrm3SAT$. Even if $mathrm3SATin mathrmP$, there's still no bound on how long those reductions can take. So, in particular, even if $mathrm3SATinmathrmDTIME[n^k']$ for some $k'$, we can't conclude that $mathrmNPsubseteqmathrmDTIME[n^k']$, or even $mathrmNPsubseteqmathrmDTIME[n^k'']$ for some $k''>k'$.






      share|cite|improve this answer










      $endgroup$

















        8














        8










        8







        $begingroup$

        Suppose that $mathrm3SATinmathrmNTIME[n^k]$. By the nondeterministic version of the time hierarchy theorem, for any $r$, there is a problem $X_rinmathrmNTIME[n^r]$ that is not in $mathrmNTIME[n^r-1]$. This is an unconditional result that doesn't depend on any kind of assumption such as $mathrmPneqmathrmNP$



        Choose any $r>k$. Suppose we have a deterministic reduction from $X_r$ to $mathrm3SAT$ that runs in time $n^t$. It produces a $mathrm3SAT$ instance of size at most $n^t$, which can be solved in time at most $(n^t)^k=n^tk$. By our choice of $X_r$, we must have $tk>r-1$, so $t>(r+1)/k$. This function grows without bound with $r$.



        This means that there is no bound on how long it can take to reduce an arbitrary $mathrmNP$ problem to $mathrm3SAT$. Even if $mathrm3SATin mathrmP$, there's still no bound on how long those reductions can take. So, in particular, even if $mathrm3SATinmathrmDTIME[n^k']$ for some $k'$, we can't conclude that $mathrmNPsubseteqmathrmDTIME[n^k']$, or even $mathrmNPsubseteqmathrmDTIME[n^k'']$ for some $k''>k'$.






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        $endgroup$



        Suppose that $mathrm3SATinmathrmNTIME[n^k]$. By the nondeterministic version of the time hierarchy theorem, for any $r$, there is a problem $X_rinmathrmNTIME[n^r]$ that is not in $mathrmNTIME[n^r-1]$. This is an unconditional result that doesn't depend on any kind of assumption such as $mathrmPneqmathrmNP$



        Choose any $r>k$. Suppose we have a deterministic reduction from $X_r$ to $mathrm3SAT$ that runs in time $n^t$. It produces a $mathrm3SAT$ instance of size at most $n^t$, which can be solved in time at most $(n^t)^k=n^tk$. By our choice of $X_r$, we must have $tk>r-1$, so $t>(r+1)/k$. This function grows without bound with $r$.



        This means that there is no bound on how long it can take to reduce an arbitrary $mathrmNP$ problem to $mathrm3SAT$. Even if $mathrm3SATin mathrmP$, there's still no bound on how long those reductions can take. So, in particular, even if $mathrm3SATinmathrmDTIME[n^k']$ for some $k'$, we can't conclude that $mathrmNPsubseteqmathrmDTIME[n^k']$, or even $mathrmNPsubseteqmathrmDTIME[n^k'']$ for some $k''>k'$.







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        answered Apr 25 at 14:58









        David RicherbyDavid Richerby

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