Why do airplanes use an axial flow jet engine instead of a more compact centrifugal jet engine?Can an S-duct fit a turbofan exhaust instead of the intake?Why don't planes use pulsejets?Why were rotary vane compressors never used in jet engines?What does the actual path of air within a turbojet engine look like?How is bleed air used to start a jet engine?Where does turbine vane and blade cooling air come from?Is my understanding of subsonic inlets correct?Would a ducted fan with a nozzle like a jet engine have more thrust than a normal ducted fan?Are centrifugal turbojets easier to make than axial ones?Why don't modern jet engines use forced exhaust mixing?Why are liquid ring compressors not used in a jet engine?

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Why do airplanes use an axial flow jet engine instead of a more compact centrifugal jet engine?


Can an S-duct fit a turbofan exhaust instead of the intake?Why don't planes use pulsejets?Why were rotary vane compressors never used in jet engines?What does the actual path of air within a turbojet engine look like?How is bleed air used to start a jet engine?Where does turbine vane and blade cooling air come from?Is my understanding of subsonic inlets correct?Would a ducted fan with a nozzle like a jet engine have more thrust than a normal ducted fan?Are centrifugal turbojets easier to make than axial ones?Why don't modern jet engines use forced exhaust mixing?Why are liquid ring compressors not used in a jet engine?






.everyoneloves__top-leaderboard:empty,.everyoneloves__mid-leaderboard:empty,.everyoneloves__bot-mid-leaderboard:empty
margin-bottom:0;









18














$begingroup$


Axial flow jet engines take up a lot of space. Centrifugal jet engines create high pressure. Can you create a centrifugal air pump that pushes as much air as a axial jet engine. Centrifugal air engines reach higher speeds from my research. What are the main disadvantages of centrifugal air engines from the standard axial engines.










share|improve this question












$endgroup$





















    18














    $begingroup$


    Axial flow jet engines take up a lot of space. Centrifugal jet engines create high pressure. Can you create a centrifugal air pump that pushes as much air as a axial jet engine. Centrifugal air engines reach higher speeds from my research. What are the main disadvantages of centrifugal air engines from the standard axial engines.










    share|improve this question












    $endgroup$

















      18












      18








      18





      $begingroup$


      Axial flow jet engines take up a lot of space. Centrifugal jet engines create high pressure. Can you create a centrifugal air pump that pushes as much air as a axial jet engine. Centrifugal air engines reach higher speeds from my research. What are the main disadvantages of centrifugal air engines from the standard axial engines.










      share|improve this question












      $endgroup$




      Axial flow jet engines take up a lot of space. Centrifugal jet engines create high pressure. Can you create a centrifugal air pump that pushes as much air as a axial jet engine. Centrifugal air engines reach higher speeds from my research. What are the main disadvantages of centrifugal air engines from the standard axial engines.







      jet-engine engine-design compressor






      share|improve this question
















      share|improve this question













      share|improve this question




      share|improve this question








      edited May 25 at 13:18









      ymb1

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      asked May 24 at 21:12









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          4 Answers
          4






          active

          oldest

          votes


















          39
















          $begingroup$

          Centrifugal compressors only produce a more compact engine at low mass flow, which means low thrust.



          The amount of thrust an engine can produce is proportional to its intake area times exhaust velocity. Increasing the latter is undesirable, as energy and thus fuel consumption is proportional to velocity squared. So engine designers target mass flow to gain more thrust.



          Since they are 3D structures, in a naive solid design (that you'd find in early jets and microturbines), the mass of a centrifugal compressor grows in cubic proportion to its diameter, while frontal area, which limits its mass flow and thus its thrust, increases only as diameter squared. This creates a cube-square law.



          Large real-life parts are filled with lightening and cooling channels, so the law is more complex, Still, the end result is that the mass of centrifugal compressors grows faster than power, and at the highest power levels they become prohibitively heavy even for fixed powerplant machinery, where durability otherwise trumps weight. With axial compressors, the flat design with short air flow path allows mass to only grow in direct proportion to power, and very powerful engines can be built within reasonable dimensions.



          High-performance engines, such as those in commercial aircraft, also need to pack more thrust into the smallest cross-section they can, while maintaining efficiency, so as to reduce drag and also fit under the wings, enabling heavier jets. Axial compressors offer a lot more intake area for any given cross-section - thus more thrust.



          The smallest jets, where thrust requirements are small and the engine's cross-section is very small compared to the fuselage, can afford the extra diameter of a centrifugal or diagonal flow compressor. Yes, it's the same cube-square law that keeps the engine cross-section to total cross-section ratio increasing as aircraft go up in size. Small centrifugal compressors are simpler, easier to build, and more robust than small axial ones.



          So in every industry there is a crossover point from centrifugal to axial. For aircraft where drag is critical, it's just above small bizjets, mobile ground and helicopter turbines stay centrifugal or mixed up to a few MW, and in the tens of megawatts even fixed powerplants switch from axial/centrifugal to all-axial. Engines close to that crossover point typically combine axial and centrifugal stages, and newer diagonal compressors offer an even more tailored compromise.






          share|improve this answer












          $endgroup$










          • 1




            $begingroup$
            Thank you, a very thorough yet easy to follow answer.
            $endgroup$
            – Mast
            May 25 at 16:29










          • $begingroup$
            "Centrifugal compressors are only more compact at low mass flow" no they aren't, they are more compact at any mass flow. A large part of the frontal area cannot be used for airflow, is the issue in larger engines.
            $endgroup$
            – Koyovis
            May 26 at 2:31










          • $begingroup$
            @Koyovis Define "compact" then. Inlets have to be sized for required airflow, so, for airliner engines that are only as wide as their inlets, a wider compressor will mean a wider and heavier engine. Centrifugal compressors are compact in smaller engines, but supersizing them doesn't maintain that - axials are better at ingesting as much air as possible in given engine size.
            $endgroup$
            – Therac
            May 26 at 7:44










          • $begingroup$
            "The necessary mass of a centrifugal compressor grows in cubic proportion to its diameter" Not necessarily: The length of an engine might even shrink when increasing the diameter. In this case the volume (and therefore the weight) would grow less than squared.
            $endgroup$
            – Martin Rosenau
            May 26 at 15:37










          • $begingroup$
            Mass of the centrifugal compressor grows exponentially compared to the mass of three axial stages? The centrifugal compressor can be hollowed out, the main stress bearing material is at the impeller tip.
            $endgroup$
            – Koyovis
            Jun 11 at 1:43


















          17
















          $begingroup$

          Axial turbine engines take up a lot of space...lengthwise. Centrifugal compressors are shorter and wider, and are very often used in turboprop and turboshaft engines, for instance the Rolls Royce Dart is a single axis turboprop engine. The photo demonstrates the compactness of the engine...lengthwise.



          Wiki.




          Can you create a centrifugal air pump that pushes as much air as a axial jet engine.




          Yes you can. It will have two main issues:



          1. The losses in the centrifugal compressors will be higher than for an axial configuration reaching the same compression ratio.

          2. Part of the frontal area cannot be used for airflow.


          What are the main disadvantages of centrifugal air engines from the standard axial engines.




          Centrifugal compressors:



          • Are slightly less efficient than axial compressors (for a given compression ratio).

          • Expel the airflow perpendicular to free stream, so that if multiple stages are required the airflow must be guided into quite a bendy pathway, with additional negative impact on efficiency.

          • Result in an engine with a larger frontal area.

          Advantages are:



          • Centrifugal compressors achieve higher compression ratios than axial compressors - per stage. Compression ratios of 4 - 6, while an axial stage can only do 1.4 - 1.6.

          • They are of a more robust and often less costly construction.

          Larger engines (high mass flow, high compression ratio and minimal frontal area) use axial compressors almost exclusively: the internal losses are lowest. Centrifugal compressors are used for design cases where other factors than efficiency are of interest, such as cost and limitation of length for helicopter turboshafts.



          An example of the use of a centrifugal compressor in a turbofan engine is the Garrett AiResearch ATF3. A 3-shaft engine, with the fan on shaft 1, five axial stages on shaft 2, and a centrifugal stage on shaft 3.



          enter image description here



          Picture source



          The hot exhaust stream is deflected back into the fan bypass, which cools it down and results in a low IR signature. This engine is used in the Dassault Falcon. Note that there is no principal technical difficulty to scale this engine up to A380 level, other than the decreased efficiency due to the multiple deflections in the airstream. The wider frontal area is not a problem in the compressor part, and the total compression ratio increases a lot using this final stage.



          As in the ATF3, centrifugal compressors are often combined with an axial stage, which pre-whirls the air stream into the centrifugal compressor and increases both efficiency and max compression ratio per single stage, as compared to a flat single stage.



          From an old uni book






          share|improve this answer












          $endgroup$






















            3
















            $begingroup$

            While a centrifugal compressor can acheive greater compression than a single compressor stage in an axial flow engine, the axial flow design allows for multiple compressor stages, achieving higher overall compression of the air and consequently greater efficiency. Centrifugal flow jet engines are, however, tough and reliable.






            share|improve this answer










            $endgroup$














            • $begingroup$
              Centrifugal compressors can also be multi-staged.
              $endgroup$
              – Koyovis
              May 26 at 20:06


















            0
















            $begingroup$

            All existing centrifugal-compressor aircraft engines have been turbojets or turboprops.



            Aside from their low power compared with modern turbofans (the Rolls-Royce Dart mentioned in another answer produced about 1 MW, compared with 50MW for a modern large turbofan engine core) the larger diameter of a centrifugal compressor would make it hard to design an efficient turbofan, by restricting the area of the fan duct.



            Increasing the outer diameter of the fan blades to enlarge the bypass duct is not a practical option, since it is limited by the ground clearance of the aircraft. Trying to avoid that issue with very large diameter tail-mounted engines would just create a different set of design problems.






            share|improve this answer










            $endgroup$










            • 1




              $begingroup$
              Not all; the Pratt & Whitney Canada PW600 is a turbofan (albeit a tiny one) with a centrifugal core compressor.
              $endgroup$
              – Sean
              May 25 at 22:05











            • $begingroup$
              The RR Dart powers a propeller. Talk about a large diameter fan...
              $endgroup$
              – Koyovis
              May 26 at 1:17












            Your Answer








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            4 Answers
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            4 Answers
            4






            active

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            active

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            39
















            $begingroup$

            Centrifugal compressors only produce a more compact engine at low mass flow, which means low thrust.



            The amount of thrust an engine can produce is proportional to its intake area times exhaust velocity. Increasing the latter is undesirable, as energy and thus fuel consumption is proportional to velocity squared. So engine designers target mass flow to gain more thrust.



            Since they are 3D structures, in a naive solid design (that you'd find in early jets and microturbines), the mass of a centrifugal compressor grows in cubic proportion to its diameter, while frontal area, which limits its mass flow and thus its thrust, increases only as diameter squared. This creates a cube-square law.



            Large real-life parts are filled with lightening and cooling channels, so the law is more complex, Still, the end result is that the mass of centrifugal compressors grows faster than power, and at the highest power levels they become prohibitively heavy even for fixed powerplant machinery, where durability otherwise trumps weight. With axial compressors, the flat design with short air flow path allows mass to only grow in direct proportion to power, and very powerful engines can be built within reasonable dimensions.



            High-performance engines, such as those in commercial aircraft, also need to pack more thrust into the smallest cross-section they can, while maintaining efficiency, so as to reduce drag and also fit under the wings, enabling heavier jets. Axial compressors offer a lot more intake area for any given cross-section - thus more thrust.



            The smallest jets, where thrust requirements are small and the engine's cross-section is very small compared to the fuselage, can afford the extra diameter of a centrifugal or diagonal flow compressor. Yes, it's the same cube-square law that keeps the engine cross-section to total cross-section ratio increasing as aircraft go up in size. Small centrifugal compressors are simpler, easier to build, and more robust than small axial ones.



            So in every industry there is a crossover point from centrifugal to axial. For aircraft where drag is critical, it's just above small bizjets, mobile ground and helicopter turbines stay centrifugal or mixed up to a few MW, and in the tens of megawatts even fixed powerplants switch from axial/centrifugal to all-axial. Engines close to that crossover point typically combine axial and centrifugal stages, and newer diagonal compressors offer an even more tailored compromise.






            share|improve this answer












            $endgroup$










            • 1




              $begingroup$
              Thank you, a very thorough yet easy to follow answer.
              $endgroup$
              – Mast
              May 25 at 16:29










            • $begingroup$
              "Centrifugal compressors are only more compact at low mass flow" no they aren't, they are more compact at any mass flow. A large part of the frontal area cannot be used for airflow, is the issue in larger engines.
              $endgroup$
              – Koyovis
              May 26 at 2:31










            • $begingroup$
              @Koyovis Define "compact" then. Inlets have to be sized for required airflow, so, for airliner engines that are only as wide as their inlets, a wider compressor will mean a wider and heavier engine. Centrifugal compressors are compact in smaller engines, but supersizing them doesn't maintain that - axials are better at ingesting as much air as possible in given engine size.
              $endgroup$
              – Therac
              May 26 at 7:44










            • $begingroup$
              "The necessary mass of a centrifugal compressor grows in cubic proportion to its diameter" Not necessarily: The length of an engine might even shrink when increasing the diameter. In this case the volume (and therefore the weight) would grow less than squared.
              $endgroup$
              – Martin Rosenau
              May 26 at 15:37










            • $begingroup$
              Mass of the centrifugal compressor grows exponentially compared to the mass of three axial stages? The centrifugal compressor can be hollowed out, the main stress bearing material is at the impeller tip.
              $endgroup$
              – Koyovis
              Jun 11 at 1:43















            39
















            $begingroup$

            Centrifugal compressors only produce a more compact engine at low mass flow, which means low thrust.



            The amount of thrust an engine can produce is proportional to its intake area times exhaust velocity. Increasing the latter is undesirable, as energy and thus fuel consumption is proportional to velocity squared. So engine designers target mass flow to gain more thrust.



            Since they are 3D structures, in a naive solid design (that you'd find in early jets and microturbines), the mass of a centrifugal compressor grows in cubic proportion to its diameter, while frontal area, which limits its mass flow and thus its thrust, increases only as diameter squared. This creates a cube-square law.



            Large real-life parts are filled with lightening and cooling channels, so the law is more complex, Still, the end result is that the mass of centrifugal compressors grows faster than power, and at the highest power levels they become prohibitively heavy even for fixed powerplant machinery, where durability otherwise trumps weight. With axial compressors, the flat design with short air flow path allows mass to only grow in direct proportion to power, and very powerful engines can be built within reasonable dimensions.



            High-performance engines, such as those in commercial aircraft, also need to pack more thrust into the smallest cross-section they can, while maintaining efficiency, so as to reduce drag and also fit under the wings, enabling heavier jets. Axial compressors offer a lot more intake area for any given cross-section - thus more thrust.



            The smallest jets, where thrust requirements are small and the engine's cross-section is very small compared to the fuselage, can afford the extra diameter of a centrifugal or diagonal flow compressor. Yes, it's the same cube-square law that keeps the engine cross-section to total cross-section ratio increasing as aircraft go up in size. Small centrifugal compressors are simpler, easier to build, and more robust than small axial ones.



            So in every industry there is a crossover point from centrifugal to axial. For aircraft where drag is critical, it's just above small bizjets, mobile ground and helicopter turbines stay centrifugal or mixed up to a few MW, and in the tens of megawatts even fixed powerplants switch from axial/centrifugal to all-axial. Engines close to that crossover point typically combine axial and centrifugal stages, and newer diagonal compressors offer an even more tailored compromise.






            share|improve this answer












            $endgroup$










            • 1




              $begingroup$
              Thank you, a very thorough yet easy to follow answer.
              $endgroup$
              – Mast
              May 25 at 16:29










            • $begingroup$
              "Centrifugal compressors are only more compact at low mass flow" no they aren't, they are more compact at any mass flow. A large part of the frontal area cannot be used for airflow, is the issue in larger engines.
              $endgroup$
              – Koyovis
              May 26 at 2:31










            • $begingroup$
              @Koyovis Define "compact" then. Inlets have to be sized for required airflow, so, for airliner engines that are only as wide as their inlets, a wider compressor will mean a wider and heavier engine. Centrifugal compressors are compact in smaller engines, but supersizing them doesn't maintain that - axials are better at ingesting as much air as possible in given engine size.
              $endgroup$
              – Therac
              May 26 at 7:44










            • $begingroup$
              "The necessary mass of a centrifugal compressor grows in cubic proportion to its diameter" Not necessarily: The length of an engine might even shrink when increasing the diameter. In this case the volume (and therefore the weight) would grow less than squared.
              $endgroup$
              – Martin Rosenau
              May 26 at 15:37










            • $begingroup$
              Mass of the centrifugal compressor grows exponentially compared to the mass of three axial stages? The centrifugal compressor can be hollowed out, the main stress bearing material is at the impeller tip.
              $endgroup$
              – Koyovis
              Jun 11 at 1:43













            39














            39










            39







            $begingroup$

            Centrifugal compressors only produce a more compact engine at low mass flow, which means low thrust.



            The amount of thrust an engine can produce is proportional to its intake area times exhaust velocity. Increasing the latter is undesirable, as energy and thus fuel consumption is proportional to velocity squared. So engine designers target mass flow to gain more thrust.



            Since they are 3D structures, in a naive solid design (that you'd find in early jets and microturbines), the mass of a centrifugal compressor grows in cubic proportion to its diameter, while frontal area, which limits its mass flow and thus its thrust, increases only as diameter squared. This creates a cube-square law.



            Large real-life parts are filled with lightening and cooling channels, so the law is more complex, Still, the end result is that the mass of centrifugal compressors grows faster than power, and at the highest power levels they become prohibitively heavy even for fixed powerplant machinery, where durability otherwise trumps weight. With axial compressors, the flat design with short air flow path allows mass to only grow in direct proportion to power, and very powerful engines can be built within reasonable dimensions.



            High-performance engines, such as those in commercial aircraft, also need to pack more thrust into the smallest cross-section they can, while maintaining efficiency, so as to reduce drag and also fit under the wings, enabling heavier jets. Axial compressors offer a lot more intake area for any given cross-section - thus more thrust.



            The smallest jets, where thrust requirements are small and the engine's cross-section is very small compared to the fuselage, can afford the extra diameter of a centrifugal or diagonal flow compressor. Yes, it's the same cube-square law that keeps the engine cross-section to total cross-section ratio increasing as aircraft go up in size. Small centrifugal compressors are simpler, easier to build, and more robust than small axial ones.



            So in every industry there is a crossover point from centrifugal to axial. For aircraft where drag is critical, it's just above small bizjets, mobile ground and helicopter turbines stay centrifugal or mixed up to a few MW, and in the tens of megawatts even fixed powerplants switch from axial/centrifugal to all-axial. Engines close to that crossover point typically combine axial and centrifugal stages, and newer diagonal compressors offer an even more tailored compromise.






            share|improve this answer












            $endgroup$



            Centrifugal compressors only produce a more compact engine at low mass flow, which means low thrust.



            The amount of thrust an engine can produce is proportional to its intake area times exhaust velocity. Increasing the latter is undesirable, as energy and thus fuel consumption is proportional to velocity squared. So engine designers target mass flow to gain more thrust.



            Since they are 3D structures, in a naive solid design (that you'd find in early jets and microturbines), the mass of a centrifugal compressor grows in cubic proportion to its diameter, while frontal area, which limits its mass flow and thus its thrust, increases only as diameter squared. This creates a cube-square law.



            Large real-life parts are filled with lightening and cooling channels, so the law is more complex, Still, the end result is that the mass of centrifugal compressors grows faster than power, and at the highest power levels they become prohibitively heavy even for fixed powerplant machinery, where durability otherwise trumps weight. With axial compressors, the flat design with short air flow path allows mass to only grow in direct proportion to power, and very powerful engines can be built within reasonable dimensions.



            High-performance engines, such as those in commercial aircraft, also need to pack more thrust into the smallest cross-section they can, while maintaining efficiency, so as to reduce drag and also fit under the wings, enabling heavier jets. Axial compressors offer a lot more intake area for any given cross-section - thus more thrust.



            The smallest jets, where thrust requirements are small and the engine's cross-section is very small compared to the fuselage, can afford the extra diameter of a centrifugal or diagonal flow compressor. Yes, it's the same cube-square law that keeps the engine cross-section to total cross-section ratio increasing as aircraft go up in size. Small centrifugal compressors are simpler, easier to build, and more robust than small axial ones.



            So in every industry there is a crossover point from centrifugal to axial. For aircraft where drag is critical, it's just above small bizjets, mobile ground and helicopter turbines stay centrifugal or mixed up to a few MW, and in the tens of megawatts even fixed powerplants switch from axial/centrifugal to all-axial. Engines close to that crossover point typically combine axial and centrifugal stages, and newer diagonal compressors offer an even more tailored compromise.







            share|improve this answer















            share|improve this answer




            share|improve this answer








            edited Jun 12 at 8:01

























            answered May 25 at 8:24









            TheracTherac

            10.9k1 gold badge33 silver badges50 bronze badges




            10.9k1 gold badge33 silver badges50 bronze badges










            • 1




              $begingroup$
              Thank you, a very thorough yet easy to follow answer.
              $endgroup$
              – Mast
              May 25 at 16:29










            • $begingroup$
              "Centrifugal compressors are only more compact at low mass flow" no they aren't, they are more compact at any mass flow. A large part of the frontal area cannot be used for airflow, is the issue in larger engines.
              $endgroup$
              – Koyovis
              May 26 at 2:31










            • $begingroup$
              @Koyovis Define "compact" then. Inlets have to be sized for required airflow, so, for airliner engines that are only as wide as their inlets, a wider compressor will mean a wider and heavier engine. Centrifugal compressors are compact in smaller engines, but supersizing them doesn't maintain that - axials are better at ingesting as much air as possible in given engine size.
              $endgroup$
              – Therac
              May 26 at 7:44










            • $begingroup$
              "The necessary mass of a centrifugal compressor grows in cubic proportion to its diameter" Not necessarily: The length of an engine might even shrink when increasing the diameter. In this case the volume (and therefore the weight) would grow less than squared.
              $endgroup$
              – Martin Rosenau
              May 26 at 15:37










            • $begingroup$
              Mass of the centrifugal compressor grows exponentially compared to the mass of three axial stages? The centrifugal compressor can be hollowed out, the main stress bearing material is at the impeller tip.
              $endgroup$
              – Koyovis
              Jun 11 at 1:43












            • 1




              $begingroup$
              Thank you, a very thorough yet easy to follow answer.
              $endgroup$
              – Mast
              May 25 at 16:29










            • $begingroup$
              "Centrifugal compressors are only more compact at low mass flow" no they aren't, they are more compact at any mass flow. A large part of the frontal area cannot be used for airflow, is the issue in larger engines.
              $endgroup$
              – Koyovis
              May 26 at 2:31










            • $begingroup$
              @Koyovis Define "compact" then. Inlets have to be sized for required airflow, so, for airliner engines that are only as wide as their inlets, a wider compressor will mean a wider and heavier engine. Centrifugal compressors are compact in smaller engines, but supersizing them doesn't maintain that - axials are better at ingesting as much air as possible in given engine size.
              $endgroup$
              – Therac
              May 26 at 7:44










            • $begingroup$
              "The necessary mass of a centrifugal compressor grows in cubic proportion to its diameter" Not necessarily: The length of an engine might even shrink when increasing the diameter. In this case the volume (and therefore the weight) would grow less than squared.
              $endgroup$
              – Martin Rosenau
              May 26 at 15:37










            • $begingroup$
              Mass of the centrifugal compressor grows exponentially compared to the mass of three axial stages? The centrifugal compressor can be hollowed out, the main stress bearing material is at the impeller tip.
              $endgroup$
              – Koyovis
              Jun 11 at 1:43







            1




            1




            $begingroup$
            Thank you, a very thorough yet easy to follow answer.
            $endgroup$
            – Mast
            May 25 at 16:29




            $begingroup$
            Thank you, a very thorough yet easy to follow answer.
            $endgroup$
            – Mast
            May 25 at 16:29












            $begingroup$
            "Centrifugal compressors are only more compact at low mass flow" no they aren't, they are more compact at any mass flow. A large part of the frontal area cannot be used for airflow, is the issue in larger engines.
            $endgroup$
            – Koyovis
            May 26 at 2:31




            $begingroup$
            "Centrifugal compressors are only more compact at low mass flow" no they aren't, they are more compact at any mass flow. A large part of the frontal area cannot be used for airflow, is the issue in larger engines.
            $endgroup$
            – Koyovis
            May 26 at 2:31












            $begingroup$
            @Koyovis Define "compact" then. Inlets have to be sized for required airflow, so, for airliner engines that are only as wide as their inlets, a wider compressor will mean a wider and heavier engine. Centrifugal compressors are compact in smaller engines, but supersizing them doesn't maintain that - axials are better at ingesting as much air as possible in given engine size.
            $endgroup$
            – Therac
            May 26 at 7:44




            $begingroup$
            @Koyovis Define "compact" then. Inlets have to be sized for required airflow, so, for airliner engines that are only as wide as their inlets, a wider compressor will mean a wider and heavier engine. Centrifugal compressors are compact in smaller engines, but supersizing them doesn't maintain that - axials are better at ingesting as much air as possible in given engine size.
            $endgroup$
            – Therac
            May 26 at 7:44












            $begingroup$
            "The necessary mass of a centrifugal compressor grows in cubic proportion to its diameter" Not necessarily: The length of an engine might even shrink when increasing the diameter. In this case the volume (and therefore the weight) would grow less than squared.
            $endgroup$
            – Martin Rosenau
            May 26 at 15:37




            $begingroup$
            "The necessary mass of a centrifugal compressor grows in cubic proportion to its diameter" Not necessarily: The length of an engine might even shrink when increasing the diameter. In this case the volume (and therefore the weight) would grow less than squared.
            $endgroup$
            – Martin Rosenau
            May 26 at 15:37












            $begingroup$
            Mass of the centrifugal compressor grows exponentially compared to the mass of three axial stages? The centrifugal compressor can be hollowed out, the main stress bearing material is at the impeller tip.
            $endgroup$
            – Koyovis
            Jun 11 at 1:43




            $begingroup$
            Mass of the centrifugal compressor grows exponentially compared to the mass of three axial stages? The centrifugal compressor can be hollowed out, the main stress bearing material is at the impeller tip.
            $endgroup$
            – Koyovis
            Jun 11 at 1:43













            17
















            $begingroup$

            Axial turbine engines take up a lot of space...lengthwise. Centrifugal compressors are shorter and wider, and are very often used in turboprop and turboshaft engines, for instance the Rolls Royce Dart is a single axis turboprop engine. The photo demonstrates the compactness of the engine...lengthwise.



            Wiki.




            Can you create a centrifugal air pump that pushes as much air as a axial jet engine.




            Yes you can. It will have two main issues:



            1. The losses in the centrifugal compressors will be higher than for an axial configuration reaching the same compression ratio.

            2. Part of the frontal area cannot be used for airflow.


            What are the main disadvantages of centrifugal air engines from the standard axial engines.




            Centrifugal compressors:



            • Are slightly less efficient than axial compressors (for a given compression ratio).

            • Expel the airflow perpendicular to free stream, so that if multiple stages are required the airflow must be guided into quite a bendy pathway, with additional negative impact on efficiency.

            • Result in an engine with a larger frontal area.

            Advantages are:



            • Centrifugal compressors achieve higher compression ratios than axial compressors - per stage. Compression ratios of 4 - 6, while an axial stage can only do 1.4 - 1.6.

            • They are of a more robust and often less costly construction.

            Larger engines (high mass flow, high compression ratio and minimal frontal area) use axial compressors almost exclusively: the internal losses are lowest. Centrifugal compressors are used for design cases where other factors than efficiency are of interest, such as cost and limitation of length for helicopter turboshafts.



            An example of the use of a centrifugal compressor in a turbofan engine is the Garrett AiResearch ATF3. A 3-shaft engine, with the fan on shaft 1, five axial stages on shaft 2, and a centrifugal stage on shaft 3.



            enter image description here



            Picture source



            The hot exhaust stream is deflected back into the fan bypass, which cools it down and results in a low IR signature. This engine is used in the Dassault Falcon. Note that there is no principal technical difficulty to scale this engine up to A380 level, other than the decreased efficiency due to the multiple deflections in the airstream. The wider frontal area is not a problem in the compressor part, and the total compression ratio increases a lot using this final stage.



            As in the ATF3, centrifugal compressors are often combined with an axial stage, which pre-whirls the air stream into the centrifugal compressor and increases both efficiency and max compression ratio per single stage, as compared to a flat single stage.



            From an old uni book






            share|improve this answer












            $endgroup$



















              17
















              $begingroup$

              Axial turbine engines take up a lot of space...lengthwise. Centrifugal compressors are shorter and wider, and are very often used in turboprop and turboshaft engines, for instance the Rolls Royce Dart is a single axis turboprop engine. The photo demonstrates the compactness of the engine...lengthwise.



              Wiki.




              Can you create a centrifugal air pump that pushes as much air as a axial jet engine.




              Yes you can. It will have two main issues:



              1. The losses in the centrifugal compressors will be higher than for an axial configuration reaching the same compression ratio.

              2. Part of the frontal area cannot be used for airflow.


              What are the main disadvantages of centrifugal air engines from the standard axial engines.




              Centrifugal compressors:



              • Are slightly less efficient than axial compressors (for a given compression ratio).

              • Expel the airflow perpendicular to free stream, so that if multiple stages are required the airflow must be guided into quite a bendy pathway, with additional negative impact on efficiency.

              • Result in an engine with a larger frontal area.

              Advantages are:



              • Centrifugal compressors achieve higher compression ratios than axial compressors - per stage. Compression ratios of 4 - 6, while an axial stage can only do 1.4 - 1.6.

              • They are of a more robust and often less costly construction.

              Larger engines (high mass flow, high compression ratio and minimal frontal area) use axial compressors almost exclusively: the internal losses are lowest. Centrifugal compressors are used for design cases where other factors than efficiency are of interest, such as cost and limitation of length for helicopter turboshafts.



              An example of the use of a centrifugal compressor in a turbofan engine is the Garrett AiResearch ATF3. A 3-shaft engine, with the fan on shaft 1, five axial stages on shaft 2, and a centrifugal stage on shaft 3.



              enter image description here



              Picture source



              The hot exhaust stream is deflected back into the fan bypass, which cools it down and results in a low IR signature. This engine is used in the Dassault Falcon. Note that there is no principal technical difficulty to scale this engine up to A380 level, other than the decreased efficiency due to the multiple deflections in the airstream. The wider frontal area is not a problem in the compressor part, and the total compression ratio increases a lot using this final stage.



              As in the ATF3, centrifugal compressors are often combined with an axial stage, which pre-whirls the air stream into the centrifugal compressor and increases both efficiency and max compression ratio per single stage, as compared to a flat single stage.



              From an old uni book






              share|improve this answer












              $endgroup$

















                17














                17










                17







                $begingroup$

                Axial turbine engines take up a lot of space...lengthwise. Centrifugal compressors are shorter and wider, and are very often used in turboprop and turboshaft engines, for instance the Rolls Royce Dart is a single axis turboprop engine. The photo demonstrates the compactness of the engine...lengthwise.



                Wiki.




                Can you create a centrifugal air pump that pushes as much air as a axial jet engine.




                Yes you can. It will have two main issues:



                1. The losses in the centrifugal compressors will be higher than for an axial configuration reaching the same compression ratio.

                2. Part of the frontal area cannot be used for airflow.


                What are the main disadvantages of centrifugal air engines from the standard axial engines.




                Centrifugal compressors:



                • Are slightly less efficient than axial compressors (for a given compression ratio).

                • Expel the airflow perpendicular to free stream, so that if multiple stages are required the airflow must be guided into quite a bendy pathway, with additional negative impact on efficiency.

                • Result in an engine with a larger frontal area.

                Advantages are:



                • Centrifugal compressors achieve higher compression ratios than axial compressors - per stage. Compression ratios of 4 - 6, while an axial stage can only do 1.4 - 1.6.

                • They are of a more robust and often less costly construction.

                Larger engines (high mass flow, high compression ratio and minimal frontal area) use axial compressors almost exclusively: the internal losses are lowest. Centrifugal compressors are used for design cases where other factors than efficiency are of interest, such as cost and limitation of length for helicopter turboshafts.



                An example of the use of a centrifugal compressor in a turbofan engine is the Garrett AiResearch ATF3. A 3-shaft engine, with the fan on shaft 1, five axial stages on shaft 2, and a centrifugal stage on shaft 3.



                enter image description here



                Picture source



                The hot exhaust stream is deflected back into the fan bypass, which cools it down and results in a low IR signature. This engine is used in the Dassault Falcon. Note that there is no principal technical difficulty to scale this engine up to A380 level, other than the decreased efficiency due to the multiple deflections in the airstream. The wider frontal area is not a problem in the compressor part, and the total compression ratio increases a lot using this final stage.



                As in the ATF3, centrifugal compressors are often combined with an axial stage, which pre-whirls the air stream into the centrifugal compressor and increases both efficiency and max compression ratio per single stage, as compared to a flat single stage.



                From an old uni book






                share|improve this answer












                $endgroup$



                Axial turbine engines take up a lot of space...lengthwise. Centrifugal compressors are shorter and wider, and are very often used in turboprop and turboshaft engines, for instance the Rolls Royce Dart is a single axis turboprop engine. The photo demonstrates the compactness of the engine...lengthwise.



                Wiki.




                Can you create a centrifugal air pump that pushes as much air as a axial jet engine.




                Yes you can. It will have two main issues:



                1. The losses in the centrifugal compressors will be higher than for an axial configuration reaching the same compression ratio.

                2. Part of the frontal area cannot be used for airflow.


                What are the main disadvantages of centrifugal air engines from the standard axial engines.




                Centrifugal compressors:



                • Are slightly less efficient than axial compressors (for a given compression ratio).

                • Expel the airflow perpendicular to free stream, so that if multiple stages are required the airflow must be guided into quite a bendy pathway, with additional negative impact on efficiency.

                • Result in an engine with a larger frontal area.

                Advantages are:



                • Centrifugal compressors achieve higher compression ratios than axial compressors - per stage. Compression ratios of 4 - 6, while an axial stage can only do 1.4 - 1.6.

                • They are of a more robust and often less costly construction.

                Larger engines (high mass flow, high compression ratio and minimal frontal area) use axial compressors almost exclusively: the internal losses are lowest. Centrifugal compressors are used for design cases where other factors than efficiency are of interest, such as cost and limitation of length for helicopter turboshafts.



                An example of the use of a centrifugal compressor in a turbofan engine is the Garrett AiResearch ATF3. A 3-shaft engine, with the fan on shaft 1, five axial stages on shaft 2, and a centrifugal stage on shaft 3.



                enter image description here



                Picture source



                The hot exhaust stream is deflected back into the fan bypass, which cools it down and results in a low IR signature. This engine is used in the Dassault Falcon. Note that there is no principal technical difficulty to scale this engine up to A380 level, other than the decreased efficiency due to the multiple deflections in the airstream. The wider frontal area is not a problem in the compressor part, and the total compression ratio increases a lot using this final stage.



                As in the ATF3, centrifugal compressors are often combined with an axial stage, which pre-whirls the air stream into the centrifugal compressor and increases both efficiency and max compression ratio per single stage, as compared to a flat single stage.



                From an old uni book







                share|improve this answer















                share|improve this answer




                share|improve this answer








                edited May 26 at 3:05

























                answered May 25 at 2:03









                KoyovisKoyovis

                38.3k9 gold badges104 silver badges198 bronze badges




                38.3k9 gold badges104 silver badges198 bronze badges
























                    3
















                    $begingroup$

                    While a centrifugal compressor can acheive greater compression than a single compressor stage in an axial flow engine, the axial flow design allows for multiple compressor stages, achieving higher overall compression of the air and consequently greater efficiency. Centrifugal flow jet engines are, however, tough and reliable.






                    share|improve this answer










                    $endgroup$














                    • $begingroup$
                      Centrifugal compressors can also be multi-staged.
                      $endgroup$
                      – Koyovis
                      May 26 at 20:06















                    3
















                    $begingroup$

                    While a centrifugal compressor can acheive greater compression than a single compressor stage in an axial flow engine, the axial flow design allows for multiple compressor stages, achieving higher overall compression of the air and consequently greater efficiency. Centrifugal flow jet engines are, however, tough and reliable.






                    share|improve this answer










                    $endgroup$














                    • $begingroup$
                      Centrifugal compressors can also be multi-staged.
                      $endgroup$
                      – Koyovis
                      May 26 at 20:06













                    3














                    3










                    3







                    $begingroup$

                    While a centrifugal compressor can acheive greater compression than a single compressor stage in an axial flow engine, the axial flow design allows for multiple compressor stages, achieving higher overall compression of the air and consequently greater efficiency. Centrifugal flow jet engines are, however, tough and reliable.






                    share|improve this answer










                    $endgroup$



                    While a centrifugal compressor can acheive greater compression than a single compressor stage in an axial flow engine, the axial flow design allows for multiple compressor stages, achieving higher overall compression of the air and consequently greater efficiency. Centrifugal flow jet engines are, however, tough and reliable.







                    share|improve this answer













                    share|improve this answer




                    share|improve this answer










                    answered May 25 at 11:17









                    J. SouthworthJ. Southworth

                    9902 silver badges6 bronze badges




                    9902 silver badges6 bronze badges














                    • $begingroup$
                      Centrifugal compressors can also be multi-staged.
                      $endgroup$
                      – Koyovis
                      May 26 at 20:06
















                    • $begingroup$
                      Centrifugal compressors can also be multi-staged.
                      $endgroup$
                      – Koyovis
                      May 26 at 20:06















                    $begingroup$
                    Centrifugal compressors can also be multi-staged.
                    $endgroup$
                    – Koyovis
                    May 26 at 20:06




                    $begingroup$
                    Centrifugal compressors can also be multi-staged.
                    $endgroup$
                    – Koyovis
                    May 26 at 20:06











                    0
















                    $begingroup$

                    All existing centrifugal-compressor aircraft engines have been turbojets or turboprops.



                    Aside from their low power compared with modern turbofans (the Rolls-Royce Dart mentioned in another answer produced about 1 MW, compared with 50MW for a modern large turbofan engine core) the larger diameter of a centrifugal compressor would make it hard to design an efficient turbofan, by restricting the area of the fan duct.



                    Increasing the outer diameter of the fan blades to enlarge the bypass duct is not a practical option, since it is limited by the ground clearance of the aircraft. Trying to avoid that issue with very large diameter tail-mounted engines would just create a different set of design problems.






                    share|improve this answer










                    $endgroup$










                    • 1




                      $begingroup$
                      Not all; the Pratt & Whitney Canada PW600 is a turbofan (albeit a tiny one) with a centrifugal core compressor.
                      $endgroup$
                      – Sean
                      May 25 at 22:05











                    • $begingroup$
                      The RR Dart powers a propeller. Talk about a large diameter fan...
                      $endgroup$
                      – Koyovis
                      May 26 at 1:17















                    0
















                    $begingroup$

                    All existing centrifugal-compressor aircraft engines have been turbojets or turboprops.



                    Aside from their low power compared with modern turbofans (the Rolls-Royce Dart mentioned in another answer produced about 1 MW, compared with 50MW for a modern large turbofan engine core) the larger diameter of a centrifugal compressor would make it hard to design an efficient turbofan, by restricting the area of the fan duct.



                    Increasing the outer diameter of the fan blades to enlarge the bypass duct is not a practical option, since it is limited by the ground clearance of the aircraft. Trying to avoid that issue with very large diameter tail-mounted engines would just create a different set of design problems.






                    share|improve this answer










                    $endgroup$










                    • 1




                      $begingroup$
                      Not all; the Pratt & Whitney Canada PW600 is a turbofan (albeit a tiny one) with a centrifugal core compressor.
                      $endgroup$
                      – Sean
                      May 25 at 22:05











                    • $begingroup$
                      The RR Dart powers a propeller. Talk about a large diameter fan...
                      $endgroup$
                      – Koyovis
                      May 26 at 1:17













                    0














                    0










                    0







                    $begingroup$

                    All existing centrifugal-compressor aircraft engines have been turbojets or turboprops.



                    Aside from their low power compared with modern turbofans (the Rolls-Royce Dart mentioned in another answer produced about 1 MW, compared with 50MW for a modern large turbofan engine core) the larger diameter of a centrifugal compressor would make it hard to design an efficient turbofan, by restricting the area of the fan duct.



                    Increasing the outer diameter of the fan blades to enlarge the bypass duct is not a practical option, since it is limited by the ground clearance of the aircraft. Trying to avoid that issue with very large diameter tail-mounted engines would just create a different set of design problems.






                    share|improve this answer










                    $endgroup$



                    All existing centrifugal-compressor aircraft engines have been turbojets or turboprops.



                    Aside from their low power compared with modern turbofans (the Rolls-Royce Dart mentioned in another answer produced about 1 MW, compared with 50MW for a modern large turbofan engine core) the larger diameter of a centrifugal compressor would make it hard to design an efficient turbofan, by restricting the area of the fan duct.



                    Increasing the outer diameter of the fan blades to enlarge the bypass duct is not a practical option, since it is limited by the ground clearance of the aircraft. Trying to avoid that issue with very large diameter tail-mounted engines would just create a different set of design problems.







                    share|improve this answer













                    share|improve this answer




                    share|improve this answer










                    answered May 25 at 22:02









                    alephzeroalephzero

                    2,1566 silver badges15 bronze badges




                    2,1566 silver badges15 bronze badges










                    • 1




                      $begingroup$
                      Not all; the Pratt & Whitney Canada PW600 is a turbofan (albeit a tiny one) with a centrifugal core compressor.
                      $endgroup$
                      – Sean
                      May 25 at 22:05











                    • $begingroup$
                      The RR Dart powers a propeller. Talk about a large diameter fan...
                      $endgroup$
                      – Koyovis
                      May 26 at 1:17












                    • 1




                      $begingroup$
                      Not all; the Pratt & Whitney Canada PW600 is a turbofan (albeit a tiny one) with a centrifugal core compressor.
                      $endgroup$
                      – Sean
                      May 25 at 22:05











                    • $begingroup$
                      The RR Dart powers a propeller. Talk about a large diameter fan...
                      $endgroup$
                      – Koyovis
                      May 26 at 1:17







                    1




                    1




                    $begingroup$
                    Not all; the Pratt & Whitney Canada PW600 is a turbofan (albeit a tiny one) with a centrifugal core compressor.
                    $endgroup$
                    – Sean
                    May 25 at 22:05





                    $begingroup$
                    Not all; the Pratt & Whitney Canada PW600 is a turbofan (albeit a tiny one) with a centrifugal core compressor.
                    $endgroup$
                    – Sean
                    May 25 at 22:05













                    $begingroup$
                    The RR Dart powers a propeller. Talk about a large diameter fan...
                    $endgroup$
                    – Koyovis
                    May 26 at 1:17




                    $begingroup$
                    The RR Dart powers a propeller. Talk about a large diameter fan...
                    $endgroup$
                    – Koyovis
                    May 26 at 1:17


















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