Coproduct in an alternative category of groupsSimplify the category of finite abelian groupsA strange ring categoryCoproduct of two modulesDirect product of groups in categorical termsWhat is the product and the product in the category $G$-$C$ of objects with a $G$-action?Catagorical Definition of Coproduct and Abelian GroupsCoproduct in the category of vector spaces with bilinear formsProduct and coproduct in the category of pointed sets..S,R bimodules subcategory of the category of S+R modules?

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Coproduct in an alternative category of groups


Simplify the category of finite abelian groupsA strange ring categoryCoproduct of two modulesDirect product of groups in categorical termsWhat is the product and the product in the category $G$-$C$ of objects with a $G$-action?Catagorical Definition of Coproduct and Abelian GroupsCoproduct in the category of vector spaces with bilinear formsProduct and coproduct in the category of pointed sets..S,R bimodules subcategory of the category of S+R modules?






.everyoneloves__top-leaderboard:empty,.everyoneloves__mid-leaderboard:empty,.everyoneloves__bot-mid-leaderboard:empty
margin-bottom:0;

.everyonelovesstackoverflowposition:absolute;height:1px;width:1px;opacity:0;top:0;left:0;pointer-events:none;








4















$begingroup$


I've been thinking about the following category $mathbbG$. Objects of $mathbbG$ are groups and a morphism from $G$ to $H$ is a set $X$ equipped with commuting left, right actions of $G, H$; equivalently, a left action of $G oplus H^op$ on $X$. The identity morphism on $G$ is $G$ itself, with the actions just given by left and right multiplication. If $X in mathbbG(G,H)$ and $Y in mathbbG(H,K)$, the composition $Xcirc Y$ is the cartesian product $X times Y$, modulo the relation $(xcdot h, y) sim (x,hcdot y)$. This admits a well-defined $G oplus K^op$ action.



Is this a standard category to consider? It is similar to the category of rings, with bimodules as morphisms.



I am interested in whether this category has a coproduct, and if it is different from the coproduct in the standard category of groups (free product).










share|cite|improve this question











$endgroup$














  • $begingroup$
    Sorry, yes you are right, that is what I meant. I'll edit the question.
    $endgroup$
    – Dave
    Sep 20 at 2:56






  • 3




    $begingroup$
    Presumably you mean the morphisms are isomorphism classes of $Gtimes H^op$-sets.
    $endgroup$
    – Eric Wofsey
    Sep 20 at 3:04






  • 1




    $begingroup$
    Well, composition would not be associative, since $(Xcirc Y)circ Z$ is only canonically isomorphic to $Xcirc (Ycirc Z)$, not literally equal.
    $endgroup$
    – Eric Wofsey
    Sep 20 at 3:23










  • $begingroup$
    Sorry, I just deleted my comment as you commented because I realised that is exactly the reason for only considering isomorphism classes.
    $endgroup$
    – Dave
    Sep 20 at 3:25

















4















$begingroup$


I've been thinking about the following category $mathbbG$. Objects of $mathbbG$ are groups and a morphism from $G$ to $H$ is a set $X$ equipped with commuting left, right actions of $G, H$; equivalently, a left action of $G oplus H^op$ on $X$. The identity morphism on $G$ is $G$ itself, with the actions just given by left and right multiplication. If $X in mathbbG(G,H)$ and $Y in mathbbG(H,K)$, the composition $Xcirc Y$ is the cartesian product $X times Y$, modulo the relation $(xcdot h, y) sim (x,hcdot y)$. This admits a well-defined $G oplus K^op$ action.



Is this a standard category to consider? It is similar to the category of rings, with bimodules as morphisms.



I am interested in whether this category has a coproduct, and if it is different from the coproduct in the standard category of groups (free product).










share|cite|improve this question











$endgroup$














  • $begingroup$
    Sorry, yes you are right, that is what I meant. I'll edit the question.
    $endgroup$
    – Dave
    Sep 20 at 2:56






  • 3




    $begingroup$
    Presumably you mean the morphisms are isomorphism classes of $Gtimes H^op$-sets.
    $endgroup$
    – Eric Wofsey
    Sep 20 at 3:04






  • 1




    $begingroup$
    Well, composition would not be associative, since $(Xcirc Y)circ Z$ is only canonically isomorphic to $Xcirc (Ycirc Z)$, not literally equal.
    $endgroup$
    – Eric Wofsey
    Sep 20 at 3:23










  • $begingroup$
    Sorry, I just deleted my comment as you commented because I realised that is exactly the reason for only considering isomorphism classes.
    $endgroup$
    – Dave
    Sep 20 at 3:25













4













4









4


3



$begingroup$


I've been thinking about the following category $mathbbG$. Objects of $mathbbG$ are groups and a morphism from $G$ to $H$ is a set $X$ equipped with commuting left, right actions of $G, H$; equivalently, a left action of $G oplus H^op$ on $X$. The identity morphism on $G$ is $G$ itself, with the actions just given by left and right multiplication. If $X in mathbbG(G,H)$ and $Y in mathbbG(H,K)$, the composition $Xcirc Y$ is the cartesian product $X times Y$, modulo the relation $(xcdot h, y) sim (x,hcdot y)$. This admits a well-defined $G oplus K^op$ action.



Is this a standard category to consider? It is similar to the category of rings, with bimodules as morphisms.



I am interested in whether this category has a coproduct, and if it is different from the coproduct in the standard category of groups (free product).










share|cite|improve this question











$endgroup$




I've been thinking about the following category $mathbbG$. Objects of $mathbbG$ are groups and a morphism from $G$ to $H$ is a set $X$ equipped with commuting left, right actions of $G, H$; equivalently, a left action of $G oplus H^op$ on $X$. The identity morphism on $G$ is $G$ itself, with the actions just given by left and right multiplication. If $X in mathbbG(G,H)$ and $Y in mathbbG(H,K)$, the composition $Xcirc Y$ is the cartesian product $X times Y$, modulo the relation $(xcdot h, y) sim (x,hcdot y)$. This admits a well-defined $G oplus K^op$ action.



Is this a standard category to consider? It is similar to the category of rings, with bimodules as morphisms.



I am interested in whether this category has a coproduct, and if it is different from the coproduct in the standard category of groups (free product).







group-theory category-theory group-actions limits-colimits






share|cite|improve this question















share|cite|improve this question













share|cite|improve this question




share|cite|improve this question








edited Sep 20 at 2:57







Dave

















asked Sep 20 at 2:27









DaveDave

874 bronze badges




874 bronze badges














  • $begingroup$
    Sorry, yes you are right, that is what I meant. I'll edit the question.
    $endgroup$
    – Dave
    Sep 20 at 2:56






  • 3




    $begingroup$
    Presumably you mean the morphisms are isomorphism classes of $Gtimes H^op$-sets.
    $endgroup$
    – Eric Wofsey
    Sep 20 at 3:04






  • 1




    $begingroup$
    Well, composition would not be associative, since $(Xcirc Y)circ Z$ is only canonically isomorphic to $Xcirc (Ycirc Z)$, not literally equal.
    $endgroup$
    – Eric Wofsey
    Sep 20 at 3:23










  • $begingroup$
    Sorry, I just deleted my comment as you commented because I realised that is exactly the reason for only considering isomorphism classes.
    $endgroup$
    – Dave
    Sep 20 at 3:25
















  • $begingroup$
    Sorry, yes you are right, that is what I meant. I'll edit the question.
    $endgroup$
    – Dave
    Sep 20 at 2:56






  • 3




    $begingroup$
    Presumably you mean the morphisms are isomorphism classes of $Gtimes H^op$-sets.
    $endgroup$
    – Eric Wofsey
    Sep 20 at 3:04






  • 1




    $begingroup$
    Well, composition would not be associative, since $(Xcirc Y)circ Z$ is only canonically isomorphic to $Xcirc (Ycirc Z)$, not literally equal.
    $endgroup$
    – Eric Wofsey
    Sep 20 at 3:23










  • $begingroup$
    Sorry, I just deleted my comment as you commented because I realised that is exactly the reason for only considering isomorphism classes.
    $endgroup$
    – Dave
    Sep 20 at 3:25















$begingroup$
Sorry, yes you are right, that is what I meant. I'll edit the question.
$endgroup$
– Dave
Sep 20 at 2:56




$begingroup$
Sorry, yes you are right, that is what I meant. I'll edit the question.
$endgroup$
– Dave
Sep 20 at 2:56




3




3




$begingroup$
Presumably you mean the morphisms are isomorphism classes of $Gtimes H^op$-sets.
$endgroup$
– Eric Wofsey
Sep 20 at 3:04




$begingroup$
Presumably you mean the morphisms are isomorphism classes of $Gtimes H^op$-sets.
$endgroup$
– Eric Wofsey
Sep 20 at 3:04




1




1




$begingroup$
Well, composition would not be associative, since $(Xcirc Y)circ Z$ is only canonically isomorphic to $Xcirc (Ycirc Z)$, not literally equal.
$endgroup$
– Eric Wofsey
Sep 20 at 3:23




$begingroup$
Well, composition would not be associative, since $(Xcirc Y)circ Z$ is only canonically isomorphic to $Xcirc (Ycirc Z)$, not literally equal.
$endgroup$
– Eric Wofsey
Sep 20 at 3:23












$begingroup$
Sorry, I just deleted my comment as you commented because I realised that is exactly the reason for only considering isomorphism classes.
$endgroup$
– Dave
Sep 20 at 3:25




$begingroup$
Sorry, I just deleted my comment as you commented because I realised that is exactly the reason for only considering isomorphism classes.
$endgroup$
– Dave
Sep 20 at 3:25










3 Answers
3






active

oldest

votes


















5

















$begingroup$

This category does not have coproducts. The simplest example is that it has no initial object: an initial object would be a group $G$ such that for any group $H$ there is exactly one $(G,H)$-bimodule (up to isomorphism), but this is impossible since there is always a proper class of different $(G,H)$-bimodules. (Here by $(G,H)$-bimodule of course I mean set with commuting left $G$-action and right $H$-action.)



Or, consider a coproduct of two copies of the trivial group. That would be a group $G$ together with two right $G$-modules $A$ and $B$ such that for any group $H$ with two right $H$-modules $C$ and $D$, there is a unique $(G,H)$-bimodule $X$ such that $Acirc Xcong C$ and $Bcirc Xcong D$. But, since $Acirc X$ is a quotient of $Atimes X$, it is empty iff either $A$ or $X$ is empty. So for instance, if $C$ is empty and $D$ is nonempty, then we find that $B$ must be empty and $A$ must be nonempty, but then we get a contradiction if we swap the roles of $C$ and $D$. A similar argument (with messier notation) shows that actually no coproducts at all exist besides unary coproducts.






share|cite|improve this answer










$endgroup$





















    5

















    $begingroup$

    This is a standard category to consider, but as the other answer shows, it has some deficiencies. A standard way to repair them is to consider instead the category whose objects are small categories, where a left module is generalized to a covariant functor into sets and dually.



    Talking about isomorphism classes is not ideal; this is really a bicategory, with natural transformations as 2-morphisms. It should be clear how this specializes to the case of groups: bimodule homomorphisms. This bicategory does have colimits in the appropriate sense, which are given by the corresponding colimits of categories. Thus the closest thing to a coproduct of two groups $G,H$ in your category is probably the disjoint union of $G$ and $H$, viewed as one-object categories.






    share|cite|improve this answer










    $endgroup$





















      0

















      $begingroup$

      My five cents here.



      After linearization (taking free abelian groups on morphism sets and identifying $2m$ with $m sqcup m$) it is a very useful object and known as a biset category. Endomorphism of an object in this category was known even before categories were defined and evidently a Burnside ring of a group.



      There is a surprising construction stemming from it. If you take in consideration only finite $p$-groups, and linearize everything over rationals, then resulting category will have an explicitly defined — by some universal relations — abelian (!) quotient into which category of finite $p$-groups embeds. In some sense this category completely describes rational representations and natural operations on them. Tag word is Roquette category.






      share|cite|improve this answer










      $endgroup$















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        3 Answers
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        3 Answers
        3






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        active

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        active

        oldest

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        5

















        $begingroup$

        This category does not have coproducts. The simplest example is that it has no initial object: an initial object would be a group $G$ such that for any group $H$ there is exactly one $(G,H)$-bimodule (up to isomorphism), but this is impossible since there is always a proper class of different $(G,H)$-bimodules. (Here by $(G,H)$-bimodule of course I mean set with commuting left $G$-action and right $H$-action.)



        Or, consider a coproduct of two copies of the trivial group. That would be a group $G$ together with two right $G$-modules $A$ and $B$ such that for any group $H$ with two right $H$-modules $C$ and $D$, there is a unique $(G,H)$-bimodule $X$ such that $Acirc Xcong C$ and $Bcirc Xcong D$. But, since $Acirc X$ is a quotient of $Atimes X$, it is empty iff either $A$ or $X$ is empty. So for instance, if $C$ is empty and $D$ is nonempty, then we find that $B$ must be empty and $A$ must be nonempty, but then we get a contradiction if we swap the roles of $C$ and $D$. A similar argument (with messier notation) shows that actually no coproducts at all exist besides unary coproducts.






        share|cite|improve this answer










        $endgroup$


















          5

















          $begingroup$

          This category does not have coproducts. The simplest example is that it has no initial object: an initial object would be a group $G$ such that for any group $H$ there is exactly one $(G,H)$-bimodule (up to isomorphism), but this is impossible since there is always a proper class of different $(G,H)$-bimodules. (Here by $(G,H)$-bimodule of course I mean set with commuting left $G$-action and right $H$-action.)



          Or, consider a coproduct of two copies of the trivial group. That would be a group $G$ together with two right $G$-modules $A$ and $B$ such that for any group $H$ with two right $H$-modules $C$ and $D$, there is a unique $(G,H)$-bimodule $X$ such that $Acirc Xcong C$ and $Bcirc Xcong D$. But, since $Acirc X$ is a quotient of $Atimes X$, it is empty iff either $A$ or $X$ is empty. So for instance, if $C$ is empty and $D$ is nonempty, then we find that $B$ must be empty and $A$ must be nonempty, but then we get a contradiction if we swap the roles of $C$ and $D$. A similar argument (with messier notation) shows that actually no coproducts at all exist besides unary coproducts.






          share|cite|improve this answer










          $endgroup$
















            5















            5











            5







            $begingroup$

            This category does not have coproducts. The simplest example is that it has no initial object: an initial object would be a group $G$ such that for any group $H$ there is exactly one $(G,H)$-bimodule (up to isomorphism), but this is impossible since there is always a proper class of different $(G,H)$-bimodules. (Here by $(G,H)$-bimodule of course I mean set with commuting left $G$-action and right $H$-action.)



            Or, consider a coproduct of two copies of the trivial group. That would be a group $G$ together with two right $G$-modules $A$ and $B$ such that for any group $H$ with two right $H$-modules $C$ and $D$, there is a unique $(G,H)$-bimodule $X$ such that $Acirc Xcong C$ and $Bcirc Xcong D$. But, since $Acirc X$ is a quotient of $Atimes X$, it is empty iff either $A$ or $X$ is empty. So for instance, if $C$ is empty and $D$ is nonempty, then we find that $B$ must be empty and $A$ must be nonempty, but then we get a contradiction if we swap the roles of $C$ and $D$. A similar argument (with messier notation) shows that actually no coproducts at all exist besides unary coproducts.






            share|cite|improve this answer










            $endgroup$



            This category does not have coproducts. The simplest example is that it has no initial object: an initial object would be a group $G$ such that for any group $H$ there is exactly one $(G,H)$-bimodule (up to isomorphism), but this is impossible since there is always a proper class of different $(G,H)$-bimodules. (Here by $(G,H)$-bimodule of course I mean set with commuting left $G$-action and right $H$-action.)



            Or, consider a coproduct of two copies of the trivial group. That would be a group $G$ together with two right $G$-modules $A$ and $B$ such that for any group $H$ with two right $H$-modules $C$ and $D$, there is a unique $(G,H)$-bimodule $X$ such that $Acirc Xcong C$ and $Bcirc Xcong D$. But, since $Acirc X$ is a quotient of $Atimes X$, it is empty iff either $A$ or $X$ is empty. So for instance, if $C$ is empty and $D$ is nonempty, then we find that $B$ must be empty and $A$ must be nonempty, but then we get a contradiction if we swap the roles of $C$ and $D$. A similar argument (with messier notation) shows that actually no coproducts at all exist besides unary coproducts.







            share|cite|improve this answer













            share|cite|improve this answer




            share|cite|improve this answer










            answered Sep 20 at 3:28









            Eric WofseyEric Wofsey

            221k15 gold badges257 silver badges401 bronze badges




            221k15 gold badges257 silver badges401 bronze badges


























                5

















                $begingroup$

                This is a standard category to consider, but as the other answer shows, it has some deficiencies. A standard way to repair them is to consider instead the category whose objects are small categories, where a left module is generalized to a covariant functor into sets and dually.



                Talking about isomorphism classes is not ideal; this is really a bicategory, with natural transformations as 2-morphisms. It should be clear how this specializes to the case of groups: bimodule homomorphisms. This bicategory does have colimits in the appropriate sense, which are given by the corresponding colimits of categories. Thus the closest thing to a coproduct of two groups $G,H$ in your category is probably the disjoint union of $G$ and $H$, viewed as one-object categories.






                share|cite|improve this answer










                $endgroup$


















                  5

















                  $begingroup$

                  This is a standard category to consider, but as the other answer shows, it has some deficiencies. A standard way to repair them is to consider instead the category whose objects are small categories, where a left module is generalized to a covariant functor into sets and dually.



                  Talking about isomorphism classes is not ideal; this is really a bicategory, with natural transformations as 2-morphisms. It should be clear how this specializes to the case of groups: bimodule homomorphisms. This bicategory does have colimits in the appropriate sense, which are given by the corresponding colimits of categories. Thus the closest thing to a coproduct of two groups $G,H$ in your category is probably the disjoint union of $G$ and $H$, viewed as one-object categories.






                  share|cite|improve this answer










                  $endgroup$
















                    5















                    5











                    5







                    $begingroup$

                    This is a standard category to consider, but as the other answer shows, it has some deficiencies. A standard way to repair them is to consider instead the category whose objects are small categories, where a left module is generalized to a covariant functor into sets and dually.



                    Talking about isomorphism classes is not ideal; this is really a bicategory, with natural transformations as 2-morphisms. It should be clear how this specializes to the case of groups: bimodule homomorphisms. This bicategory does have colimits in the appropriate sense, which are given by the corresponding colimits of categories. Thus the closest thing to a coproduct of two groups $G,H$ in your category is probably the disjoint union of $G$ and $H$, viewed as one-object categories.






                    share|cite|improve this answer










                    $endgroup$



                    This is a standard category to consider, but as the other answer shows, it has some deficiencies. A standard way to repair them is to consider instead the category whose objects are small categories, where a left module is generalized to a covariant functor into sets and dually.



                    Talking about isomorphism classes is not ideal; this is really a bicategory, with natural transformations as 2-morphisms. It should be clear how this specializes to the case of groups: bimodule homomorphisms. This bicategory does have colimits in the appropriate sense, which are given by the corresponding colimits of categories. Thus the closest thing to a coproduct of two groups $G,H$ in your category is probably the disjoint union of $G$ and $H$, viewed as one-object categories.







                    share|cite|improve this answer













                    share|cite|improve this answer




                    share|cite|improve this answer










                    answered Sep 20 at 5:16









                    Kevin CarlsonKevin Carlson

                    37.6k3 gold badges38 silver badges78 bronze badges




                    37.6k3 gold badges38 silver badges78 bronze badges
























                        0

















                        $begingroup$

                        My five cents here.



                        After linearization (taking free abelian groups on morphism sets and identifying $2m$ with $m sqcup m$) it is a very useful object and known as a biset category. Endomorphism of an object in this category was known even before categories were defined and evidently a Burnside ring of a group.



                        There is a surprising construction stemming from it. If you take in consideration only finite $p$-groups, and linearize everything over rationals, then resulting category will have an explicitly defined — by some universal relations — abelian (!) quotient into which category of finite $p$-groups embeds. In some sense this category completely describes rational representations and natural operations on them. Tag word is Roquette category.






                        share|cite|improve this answer










                        $endgroup$


















                          0

















                          $begingroup$

                          My five cents here.



                          After linearization (taking free abelian groups on morphism sets and identifying $2m$ with $m sqcup m$) it is a very useful object and known as a biset category. Endomorphism of an object in this category was known even before categories were defined and evidently a Burnside ring of a group.



                          There is a surprising construction stemming from it. If you take in consideration only finite $p$-groups, and linearize everything over rationals, then resulting category will have an explicitly defined — by some universal relations — abelian (!) quotient into which category of finite $p$-groups embeds. In some sense this category completely describes rational representations and natural operations on them. Tag word is Roquette category.






                          share|cite|improve this answer










                          $endgroup$
















                            0















                            0











                            0







                            $begingroup$

                            My five cents here.



                            After linearization (taking free abelian groups on morphism sets and identifying $2m$ with $m sqcup m$) it is a very useful object and known as a biset category. Endomorphism of an object in this category was known even before categories were defined and evidently a Burnside ring of a group.



                            There is a surprising construction stemming from it. If you take in consideration only finite $p$-groups, and linearize everything over rationals, then resulting category will have an explicitly defined — by some universal relations — abelian (!) quotient into which category of finite $p$-groups embeds. In some sense this category completely describes rational representations and natural operations on them. Tag word is Roquette category.






                            share|cite|improve this answer










                            $endgroup$



                            My five cents here.



                            After linearization (taking free abelian groups on morphism sets and identifying $2m$ with $m sqcup m$) it is a very useful object and known as a biset category. Endomorphism of an object in this category was known even before categories were defined and evidently a Burnside ring of a group.



                            There is a surprising construction stemming from it. If you take in consideration only finite $p$-groups, and linearize everything over rationals, then resulting category will have an explicitly defined — by some universal relations — abelian (!) quotient into which category of finite $p$-groups embeds. In some sense this category completely describes rational representations and natural operations on them. Tag word is Roquette category.







                            share|cite|improve this answer













                            share|cite|improve this answer




                            share|cite|improve this answer










                            answered Sep 24 at 23:01









                            xsnlxsnl

                            1,5895 silver badges18 bronze badges




                            1,5895 silver badges18 bronze badges































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