Water Bottle Rocket Thrust - two calculation methods not matchingCan a nozzle increase the thrust of a water rocket?Water bottle rocket: Where does the energy go without water?How does rocket thrust work?Combustion Chamber PressureRocket Thrust EquationWhy the exhaust pressure should be equal to ambient pressure?

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Water Bottle Rocket Thrust - two calculation methods not matching


Can a nozzle increase the thrust of a water rocket?Water bottle rocket: Where does the energy go without water?How does rocket thrust work?Combustion Chamber PressureRocket Thrust EquationWhy the exhaust pressure should be equal to ambient pressure?






.everyoneloves__top-leaderboard:empty,.everyoneloves__mid-leaderboard:empty,.everyoneloves__bot-mid-leaderboard:empty
margin-bottom:0;









18















$begingroup$


I have been launching water bottle rockets with my kids and we are in the process of creating a simulation of the launch using numerical methods. I am a mechanical engineer, but fluid dynamics is not my strong suit.



Can you give me an intuitive explanation why the two methods below give a factor of 2.0 difference for thrust? Which method is correct?




First Method



I found these formulas for calculating thrust at the following website. https://www.ohio.edu/mechanical/programming/rocket/analysis1.html



Thrust equals mass flow rate times the exhaust velocity.



$F=dotmv $



Mass flow rate is found using the water density, nozzle area, and exhaust velocity.



$dotm=rho A v$



Combining we get



$F=rho A v^2$



The square of the exhaust velocity is equal to 2 times the internal gauge pressure divided by the water density.



$v^2=2P/rho$



Combining we see that the thrust is equal to 2 times the nozzle area times the pressure.



$F=2AP$




Second Method



In the image below, it seems that the thrust on the rocket should be equal to the force imbalance as shown by the arrows. This force imbalance is the internal gage pressure times the nozzle area.



$F=AP$



enter image description here




----- UPDATE -----



Based on all the great answers and comments, I think the following figure is a better representation of the thrust force. Internal pressure (red arrows) drops off near the nozzle opening because the water flow speed is significant. Also, the water at the nozzle opening is not at zero pressure as I had originally assumed. Instead, there is dynamic pressure (green arrows) that is inversely proportional to the flow velocity. The force imbalance equals double the air pressure times the nozzle area, $F=2AP$.



enter image description here










share|cite|improve this question











$endgroup$










  • 1




    $begingroup$
    The square of the exhaust velocity is equal to 2 times the internal gauge pressure divided by the water density. Where did you get this?
    $endgroup$
    – Rishabh Jain
    Oct 1 at 12:39






  • 1




    $begingroup$
    @RishabhJain: That is equation #3 in the link I provided above. Thank you.
    $endgroup$
    – James
    Oct 1 at 12:41






  • 7




    $begingroup$
    @James, your calculation assumes that only water is exiting the rocket nozzle to provide thrust. I have seen data from a device that measured thrust, and this data clearly indicated that the flow out of the bottle is chaotic, with a mixture of liquid and air bubbles leaving the bottle at the same time. This means that the thrust is far from a nice and smooth function of time or pressure as the bottle accelerates.
    $endgroup$
    – David White
    Oct 1 at 15:28











  • $begingroup$
    @DavidWhite to add to that, you can trivially prove that air under pressure will also exit and provide thrust - you launch an "empty" (air only) bottle. I suspect that a vertical bottle will show less "chaos" than a horizontal one, or one at an angle.
    $endgroup$
    – Baldrickk
    Oct 2 at 14:02










  • $begingroup$
    @RishabhJain it's just bernoulli's equation with no gravitational term, and assuming zero velocity at the other end.
    $endgroup$
    – Rick
    Oct 2 at 15:48

















18















$begingroup$


I have been launching water bottle rockets with my kids and we are in the process of creating a simulation of the launch using numerical methods. I am a mechanical engineer, but fluid dynamics is not my strong suit.



Can you give me an intuitive explanation why the two methods below give a factor of 2.0 difference for thrust? Which method is correct?




First Method



I found these formulas for calculating thrust at the following website. https://www.ohio.edu/mechanical/programming/rocket/analysis1.html



Thrust equals mass flow rate times the exhaust velocity.



$F=dotmv $



Mass flow rate is found using the water density, nozzle area, and exhaust velocity.



$dotm=rho A v$



Combining we get



$F=rho A v^2$



The square of the exhaust velocity is equal to 2 times the internal gauge pressure divided by the water density.



$v^2=2P/rho$



Combining we see that the thrust is equal to 2 times the nozzle area times the pressure.



$F=2AP$




Second Method



In the image below, it seems that the thrust on the rocket should be equal to the force imbalance as shown by the arrows. This force imbalance is the internal gage pressure times the nozzle area.



$F=AP$



enter image description here




----- UPDATE -----



Based on all the great answers and comments, I think the following figure is a better representation of the thrust force. Internal pressure (red arrows) drops off near the nozzle opening because the water flow speed is significant. Also, the water at the nozzle opening is not at zero pressure as I had originally assumed. Instead, there is dynamic pressure (green arrows) that is inversely proportional to the flow velocity. The force imbalance equals double the air pressure times the nozzle area, $F=2AP$.



enter image description here










share|cite|improve this question











$endgroup$










  • 1




    $begingroup$
    The square of the exhaust velocity is equal to 2 times the internal gauge pressure divided by the water density. Where did you get this?
    $endgroup$
    – Rishabh Jain
    Oct 1 at 12:39






  • 1




    $begingroup$
    @RishabhJain: That is equation #3 in the link I provided above. Thank you.
    $endgroup$
    – James
    Oct 1 at 12:41






  • 7




    $begingroup$
    @James, your calculation assumes that only water is exiting the rocket nozzle to provide thrust. I have seen data from a device that measured thrust, and this data clearly indicated that the flow out of the bottle is chaotic, with a mixture of liquid and air bubbles leaving the bottle at the same time. This means that the thrust is far from a nice and smooth function of time or pressure as the bottle accelerates.
    $endgroup$
    – David White
    Oct 1 at 15:28











  • $begingroup$
    @DavidWhite to add to that, you can trivially prove that air under pressure will also exit and provide thrust - you launch an "empty" (air only) bottle. I suspect that a vertical bottle will show less "chaos" than a horizontal one, or one at an angle.
    $endgroup$
    – Baldrickk
    Oct 2 at 14:02










  • $begingroup$
    @RishabhJain it's just bernoulli's equation with no gravitational term, and assuming zero velocity at the other end.
    $endgroup$
    – Rick
    Oct 2 at 15:48













18













18









18


3



$begingroup$


I have been launching water bottle rockets with my kids and we are in the process of creating a simulation of the launch using numerical methods. I am a mechanical engineer, but fluid dynamics is not my strong suit.



Can you give me an intuitive explanation why the two methods below give a factor of 2.0 difference for thrust? Which method is correct?




First Method



I found these formulas for calculating thrust at the following website. https://www.ohio.edu/mechanical/programming/rocket/analysis1.html



Thrust equals mass flow rate times the exhaust velocity.



$F=dotmv $



Mass flow rate is found using the water density, nozzle area, and exhaust velocity.



$dotm=rho A v$



Combining we get



$F=rho A v^2$



The square of the exhaust velocity is equal to 2 times the internal gauge pressure divided by the water density.



$v^2=2P/rho$



Combining we see that the thrust is equal to 2 times the nozzle area times the pressure.



$F=2AP$




Second Method



In the image below, it seems that the thrust on the rocket should be equal to the force imbalance as shown by the arrows. This force imbalance is the internal gage pressure times the nozzle area.



$F=AP$



enter image description here




----- UPDATE -----



Based on all the great answers and comments, I think the following figure is a better representation of the thrust force. Internal pressure (red arrows) drops off near the nozzle opening because the water flow speed is significant. Also, the water at the nozzle opening is not at zero pressure as I had originally assumed. Instead, there is dynamic pressure (green arrows) that is inversely proportional to the flow velocity. The force imbalance equals double the air pressure times the nozzle area, $F=2AP$.



enter image description here










share|cite|improve this question











$endgroup$




I have been launching water bottle rockets with my kids and we are in the process of creating a simulation of the launch using numerical methods. I am a mechanical engineer, but fluid dynamics is not my strong suit.



Can you give me an intuitive explanation why the two methods below give a factor of 2.0 difference for thrust? Which method is correct?




First Method



I found these formulas for calculating thrust at the following website. https://www.ohio.edu/mechanical/programming/rocket/analysis1.html



Thrust equals mass flow rate times the exhaust velocity.



$F=dotmv $



Mass flow rate is found using the water density, nozzle area, and exhaust velocity.



$dotm=rho A v$



Combining we get



$F=rho A v^2$



The square of the exhaust velocity is equal to 2 times the internal gauge pressure divided by the water density.



$v^2=2P/rho$



Combining we see that the thrust is equal to 2 times the nozzle area times the pressure.



$F=2AP$




Second Method



In the image below, it seems that the thrust on the rocket should be equal to the force imbalance as shown by the arrows. This force imbalance is the internal gage pressure times the nozzle area.



$F=AP$



enter image description here




----- UPDATE -----



Based on all the great answers and comments, I think the following figure is a better representation of the thrust force. Internal pressure (red arrows) drops off near the nozzle opening because the water flow speed is significant. Also, the water at the nozzle opening is not at zero pressure as I had originally assumed. Instead, there is dynamic pressure (green arrows) that is inversely proportional to the flow velocity. The force imbalance equals double the air pressure times the nozzle area, $F=2AP$.



enter image description here







fluid-dynamics pressure flow rocket-science bernoulli-equation






share|cite|improve this question















share|cite|improve this question













share|cite|improve this question




share|cite|improve this question








edited Oct 3 at 11:23







James

















asked Oct 1 at 12:18









JamesJames

1,4237 silver badges21 bronze badges




1,4237 silver badges21 bronze badges










  • 1




    $begingroup$
    The square of the exhaust velocity is equal to 2 times the internal gauge pressure divided by the water density. Where did you get this?
    $endgroup$
    – Rishabh Jain
    Oct 1 at 12:39






  • 1




    $begingroup$
    @RishabhJain: That is equation #3 in the link I provided above. Thank you.
    $endgroup$
    – James
    Oct 1 at 12:41






  • 7




    $begingroup$
    @James, your calculation assumes that only water is exiting the rocket nozzle to provide thrust. I have seen data from a device that measured thrust, and this data clearly indicated that the flow out of the bottle is chaotic, with a mixture of liquid and air bubbles leaving the bottle at the same time. This means that the thrust is far from a nice and smooth function of time or pressure as the bottle accelerates.
    $endgroup$
    – David White
    Oct 1 at 15:28











  • $begingroup$
    @DavidWhite to add to that, you can trivially prove that air under pressure will also exit and provide thrust - you launch an "empty" (air only) bottle. I suspect that a vertical bottle will show less "chaos" than a horizontal one, or one at an angle.
    $endgroup$
    – Baldrickk
    Oct 2 at 14:02










  • $begingroup$
    @RishabhJain it's just bernoulli's equation with no gravitational term, and assuming zero velocity at the other end.
    $endgroup$
    – Rick
    Oct 2 at 15:48












  • 1




    $begingroup$
    The square of the exhaust velocity is equal to 2 times the internal gauge pressure divided by the water density. Where did you get this?
    $endgroup$
    – Rishabh Jain
    Oct 1 at 12:39






  • 1




    $begingroup$
    @RishabhJain: That is equation #3 in the link I provided above. Thank you.
    $endgroup$
    – James
    Oct 1 at 12:41






  • 7




    $begingroup$
    @James, your calculation assumes that only water is exiting the rocket nozzle to provide thrust. I have seen data from a device that measured thrust, and this data clearly indicated that the flow out of the bottle is chaotic, with a mixture of liquid and air bubbles leaving the bottle at the same time. This means that the thrust is far from a nice and smooth function of time or pressure as the bottle accelerates.
    $endgroup$
    – David White
    Oct 1 at 15:28











  • $begingroup$
    @DavidWhite to add to that, you can trivially prove that air under pressure will also exit and provide thrust - you launch an "empty" (air only) bottle. I suspect that a vertical bottle will show less "chaos" than a horizontal one, or one at an angle.
    $endgroup$
    – Baldrickk
    Oct 2 at 14:02










  • $begingroup$
    @RishabhJain it's just bernoulli's equation with no gravitational term, and assuming zero velocity at the other end.
    $endgroup$
    – Rick
    Oct 2 at 15:48







1




1




$begingroup$
The square of the exhaust velocity is equal to 2 times the internal gauge pressure divided by the water density. Where did you get this?
$endgroup$
– Rishabh Jain
Oct 1 at 12:39




$begingroup$
The square of the exhaust velocity is equal to 2 times the internal gauge pressure divided by the water density. Where did you get this?
$endgroup$
– Rishabh Jain
Oct 1 at 12:39




1




1




$begingroup$
@RishabhJain: That is equation #3 in the link I provided above. Thank you.
$endgroup$
– James
Oct 1 at 12:41




$begingroup$
@RishabhJain: That is equation #3 in the link I provided above. Thank you.
$endgroup$
– James
Oct 1 at 12:41




7




7




$begingroup$
@James, your calculation assumes that only water is exiting the rocket nozzle to provide thrust. I have seen data from a device that measured thrust, and this data clearly indicated that the flow out of the bottle is chaotic, with a mixture of liquid and air bubbles leaving the bottle at the same time. This means that the thrust is far from a nice and smooth function of time or pressure as the bottle accelerates.
$endgroup$
– David White
Oct 1 at 15:28





$begingroup$
@James, your calculation assumes that only water is exiting the rocket nozzle to provide thrust. I have seen data from a device that measured thrust, and this data clearly indicated that the flow out of the bottle is chaotic, with a mixture of liquid and air bubbles leaving the bottle at the same time. This means that the thrust is far from a nice and smooth function of time or pressure as the bottle accelerates.
$endgroup$
– David White
Oct 1 at 15:28













$begingroup$
@DavidWhite to add to that, you can trivially prove that air under pressure will also exit and provide thrust - you launch an "empty" (air only) bottle. I suspect that a vertical bottle will show less "chaos" than a horizontal one, or one at an angle.
$endgroup$
– Baldrickk
Oct 2 at 14:02




$begingroup$
@DavidWhite to add to that, you can trivially prove that air under pressure will also exit and provide thrust - you launch an "empty" (air only) bottle. I suspect that a vertical bottle will show less "chaos" than a horizontal one, or one at an angle.
$endgroup$
– Baldrickk
Oct 2 at 14:02












$begingroup$
@RishabhJain it's just bernoulli's equation with no gravitational term, and assuming zero velocity at the other end.
$endgroup$
– Rick
Oct 2 at 15:48




$begingroup$
@RishabhJain it's just bernoulli's equation with no gravitational term, and assuming zero velocity at the other end.
$endgroup$
– Rick
Oct 2 at 15:48










5 Answers
5






active

oldest

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18

















$begingroup$

The first method is correct. In the second you have assumed that the pressure at the nozzle is still $P$ despite the water exiting with some velocity. i.e. You have neglected the dynamic pressure.



You need to use Bernoulli's principle
$$ P + fracrho v^22 + rho h g = rm constant$$



Your first method assumes that the top surface of the water is hardly moving (because it's surface area is much bigger than the nozzle area). Applying the same idea to the second method, then we can calculate the constant both in the water and immediately below the nozzle as
$$P = P_A + fracrho v^22,$$
where $P_A$ is atmospheric pressure and we neglect the small $rho h g$ term which increases pressure due to to the column of liquid above the nozzle on the LHS. If we further assume that $P gg P_A$ then $P = rho v^2/2$ and the rate of change of momentum of liquid from the nozzle is
$$ F = rho A v^2 = 2PA$$






share|cite|improve this answer












$endgroup$









  • 3




    $begingroup$
    Thank you. Contrary to your second sentence, I intended to assume that the pressure at the nozzle was zero. I guess that the reason the second method predicts less force is that I didn't consider that there is dynamic pressure at the nozzle pushing UP on the water that is still in the bottle?
    $endgroup$
    – James
    Oct 1 at 14:15






  • 1




    $begingroup$
    @James yes, there is a pressure gradient within the water, so the narrower the cross section as the water approaches the nozzle, the faster the fluid, the lower the pressure.
    $endgroup$
    – Rick
    Oct 2 at 15:45










  • $begingroup$
    I edited the answer, hope my changes made it more clear for other readers.
    $endgroup$
    – Kevin Kostlan
    Oct 3 at 0:39







  • 3




    $begingroup$
    @KevinKostian Please don't edit an answer like that. Especially one that has already received upvotes in double figures. You doubled it in length and removed the crucial point/reference about "dynamic pressure", inserted your own peripheral example and thus completely changed the nature of the answer. You should post your own answer.
    $endgroup$
    – Rob Jeffries
    Oct 3 at 6:49



















8

















$begingroup$

Often these rockets are launched off a vertical section of pipe or rod that extends up inside the bottle, acting as a piston until the rocket has moved far enough to clear the end of the pipe. During this phase, your second method is correct: the thrust is simply the nozzle area times the pressure.



Why should the thrust increase when the rocket separates from the piston? Let me try to provide an intuitive justification. I won't prove that the thrust doubles, just dispel the notion that it should remain unchanged.



Let's say that somehow the piston is able to extend itself by constantly adding little cylindrical plugs to itself. These plugs are initially arranged in a tall rack just beside the rocket; as the rocket moves upward, the piston keeps grabbing a plug from the rack, somehow transporting it through the wall of the rocket, and adding it on to the end. The rocket never leaves the piston, and it's clear that the thrust remains just $PA$.



But this is essentially what is actually happening as the rocket expels water, with one exception. Each little bit of water leaving the nozzle can be thought of as a "plug", and the force acting to separate it from the rest of the rocket is still $PA$. But, unlike the plugs waiting in the rack at rest relative to the earth, each one of the water plugs is moving upward a bit faster than the previous one was--just fast enough to match the velocity of the rocket. The momentum transferred to the rocket by these moving plugs constitutes an additional force relative to the case in which the plugs have zero velocity.



Of course, this analogy of plugs being added during flight does not correspond to the actual case of a rocket that loses mass over time. But that difference does not affect the instantaneous thrust.






share|cite|improve this answer












$endgroup$





















    5

















    $begingroup$

    The pressure drop from tank pressure to atmospheric pressure does not occur instantly at the nozzle but rather is spread out according to the area of the flow channel. This reduced pressure results in additional thrust that was not accounted for in your second solution. Here is one way to calculate this additional missing thrust:



    Bernoulli's equation (your second to last equation) applies:



    $$P+frac12rho v^2 = constant$$



    we can combine this with your mass flow equation to get:



    $$P+frac12rho left(fracdot mrho Aright)^2 = constant$$



    Your original answer assumes negligible velocity/large area at the water surface1:



    $$P_tank + 0 = constant$$



    This gives us our constant:



    $$P+frac12rho left(fracdot mrho Aright)^2 = P_tank$$



    and we know the pressure at the exit is atmospheric/ 0 gauge pressure:



    $$0 + frac12rho left(fracdot mrho A_exitright)^2 = P_tank$$



    We can solve for $dot m$:



    $$dot m = A_exitsqrt2 rho P_tank$$



    Plugging back in:



    $$P+P_tankleft(fracA_exitAright)^2 = P_tank$$



    Solving for pressure:



    $$P = P_tank left(1-left(fracA_exitAright)^2right)$$



    So if we wanted to calculate the additional thrust due to the pressure ebeing lower near the nozzle we'd need to integrate the pressure by the area:



    $$F = F_up - F_down = int_A_exit^infty left (P_tank - P_tank left(1-left(fracA_exitAright)^2right) right) ; dA $$



    $$F = P_tank int_A_exit^infty fracA_exit^2A^2 ; dA $$



    $$F = P_tank A_exit $$



    So there's the missing $PA$ from your second solution.



    1: You can make your equations more accurate (especially for thin bottle rockets) by using the actual cross sectional area at the water surface instead of infinity both here and in the limit of the integral.






    share|cite|improve this answer












    $endgroup$





















      1

















      $begingroup$

      As you have neglected atmospheric pressure, let's assume that you are doing the experiment in a vacuum(I know that there is a spherical cow analogy somewhere :) ). You are assuming that the pressure is exerted by air inside the ballon at the surface. The air will exert the pressure in the empty part as shown by your arrows as well as on the horizontal surface of the water. Now, this will cancel out due to a complete loop. Now, if the balloon was closed there would have been no net force as the downward force due to air pressure would have been balanced by the normal force. In your 1st method, the pressure you have taken is the air pressure present inside the ballon. In your second method, you are assuming the same pressure at the bottom of the nozzle which is incorrect.






      share|cite|improve this answer










      $endgroup$









      • 1




        $begingroup$
        I don't fully understand your answer. Are you saying that I am incorrect in the second method because the water in close proximity to the nozzle opening is at a lower pressure than the pressure of the compressed air? So the red arrows near the nozzle opening should be drawn to shorter length? Thank you.
        $endgroup$
        – James
        Oct 1 at 13:34










      • $begingroup$
        The post says he uses "ga[u]ge pressure" which means that the external atmospheric pressure is already accounted for. You're on the right track here, but jumped too soon.
        $endgroup$
        – dmckee
        Oct 1 at 14:58






      • 1




        $begingroup$
        @James Those observations are correct (see my answer for math and details)
        $endgroup$
        – Rick
        Oct 2 at 15:43


















      1

















      $begingroup$

      There is a simple intuitive explanation for the factor of two difference. The thrust has two contributions, as follows.



      1) The air pressure in the rocket imposes a force down the nozzle of F=PA exactly as you surmised in your second method.



      2) The exhaust water at the instant it leaves the nozzle is still pressurised, and imposes a back-pressure on the rocket. The force due to the back pressure is also straightforwardly F=PA.



      The combined effect is therefore 2PA.






      share|cite|improve this answer












      $endgroup$













      • $begingroup$
        While pulse detonation propulsion is a thing, it's not really related to the thrust produced in this case. The first method is exactly calculating the thrust due to throwing mass out the back: $F=dot m v = 2 AP$ The water doesn't expand (much) under relaxation and there is no additional thrust generated from this relaxation.
        $endgroup$
        – Rick
        Oct 2 at 19:14










      • $begingroup$
        Hi Rick, many thanks. It would be really helpful if you could explain the logic for your last sentence. Best wishes.
        $endgroup$
        – Marco Ocram
        Oct 2 at 19:47






      • 1




        $begingroup$
        Sure, the additional thrust generated by pulse detonation or underexpanded gas flows manifests as the pressure at the exit being above atmospheric, as the gas expands it continues to accelerate and decrease in pressure until it reaches atmospheric pressure. Since water is incompressible, it doesn't expand, which means the exit velocity is its final velocity and there is no further pressure drop. This means in the case of water (or a properly expanded gas) there is no additional thrust beyond the $dot m v$.
        $endgroup$
        – Rick
        Oct 3 at 11:15











      • $begingroup$
        Hi Rick, your second sentence is not exactly right. Water does compress, and behaves elastically within limits. It has a high bulk modulus compared to air (about 2.2GPa compared with 100kPa) so the physical change in its dimensions resulting from applied pressure is much smaller; nonetheless it releases energy when it relaxes instantaneously, which creates an impulse effect. The same effect in steel (bulk modulus 160Gpa) is what causes the central balls in a Newton's cradle to pass an impulse while appearing to remain static.
        $endgroup$
        – Marco Ocram
        Oct 3 at 13:12











      • $begingroup$
        Hi Rick, I've updated the answer to include an analogous design of the rocket to illustrate the effect of ejecting a compressed elastic mass. Do you fancy calculating the thrust?
        $endgroup$
        – Marco Ocram
        Oct 3 at 13:50












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      5 Answers
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      5 Answers
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      active

      oldest

      votes






      active

      oldest

      votes









      18

















      $begingroup$

      The first method is correct. In the second you have assumed that the pressure at the nozzle is still $P$ despite the water exiting with some velocity. i.e. You have neglected the dynamic pressure.



      You need to use Bernoulli's principle
      $$ P + fracrho v^22 + rho h g = rm constant$$



      Your first method assumes that the top surface of the water is hardly moving (because it's surface area is much bigger than the nozzle area). Applying the same idea to the second method, then we can calculate the constant both in the water and immediately below the nozzle as
      $$P = P_A + fracrho v^22,$$
      where $P_A$ is atmospheric pressure and we neglect the small $rho h g$ term which increases pressure due to to the column of liquid above the nozzle on the LHS. If we further assume that $P gg P_A$ then $P = rho v^2/2$ and the rate of change of momentum of liquid from the nozzle is
      $$ F = rho A v^2 = 2PA$$






      share|cite|improve this answer












      $endgroup$









      • 3




        $begingroup$
        Thank you. Contrary to your second sentence, I intended to assume that the pressure at the nozzle was zero. I guess that the reason the second method predicts less force is that I didn't consider that there is dynamic pressure at the nozzle pushing UP on the water that is still in the bottle?
        $endgroup$
        – James
        Oct 1 at 14:15






      • 1




        $begingroup$
        @James yes, there is a pressure gradient within the water, so the narrower the cross section as the water approaches the nozzle, the faster the fluid, the lower the pressure.
        $endgroup$
        – Rick
        Oct 2 at 15:45










      • $begingroup$
        I edited the answer, hope my changes made it more clear for other readers.
        $endgroup$
        – Kevin Kostlan
        Oct 3 at 0:39







      • 3




        $begingroup$
        @KevinKostian Please don't edit an answer like that. Especially one that has already received upvotes in double figures. You doubled it in length and removed the crucial point/reference about "dynamic pressure", inserted your own peripheral example and thus completely changed the nature of the answer. You should post your own answer.
        $endgroup$
        – Rob Jeffries
        Oct 3 at 6:49
















      18

















      $begingroup$

      The first method is correct. In the second you have assumed that the pressure at the nozzle is still $P$ despite the water exiting with some velocity. i.e. You have neglected the dynamic pressure.



      You need to use Bernoulli's principle
      $$ P + fracrho v^22 + rho h g = rm constant$$



      Your first method assumes that the top surface of the water is hardly moving (because it's surface area is much bigger than the nozzle area). Applying the same idea to the second method, then we can calculate the constant both in the water and immediately below the nozzle as
      $$P = P_A + fracrho v^22,$$
      where $P_A$ is atmospheric pressure and we neglect the small $rho h g$ term which increases pressure due to to the column of liquid above the nozzle on the LHS. If we further assume that $P gg P_A$ then $P = rho v^2/2$ and the rate of change of momentum of liquid from the nozzle is
      $$ F = rho A v^2 = 2PA$$






      share|cite|improve this answer












      $endgroup$









      • 3




        $begingroup$
        Thank you. Contrary to your second sentence, I intended to assume that the pressure at the nozzle was zero. I guess that the reason the second method predicts less force is that I didn't consider that there is dynamic pressure at the nozzle pushing UP on the water that is still in the bottle?
        $endgroup$
        – James
        Oct 1 at 14:15






      • 1




        $begingroup$
        @James yes, there is a pressure gradient within the water, so the narrower the cross section as the water approaches the nozzle, the faster the fluid, the lower the pressure.
        $endgroup$
        – Rick
        Oct 2 at 15:45










      • $begingroup$
        I edited the answer, hope my changes made it more clear for other readers.
        $endgroup$
        – Kevin Kostlan
        Oct 3 at 0:39







      • 3




        $begingroup$
        @KevinKostian Please don't edit an answer like that. Especially one that has already received upvotes in double figures. You doubled it in length and removed the crucial point/reference about "dynamic pressure", inserted your own peripheral example and thus completely changed the nature of the answer. You should post your own answer.
        $endgroup$
        – Rob Jeffries
        Oct 3 at 6:49














      18















      18











      18







      $begingroup$

      The first method is correct. In the second you have assumed that the pressure at the nozzle is still $P$ despite the water exiting with some velocity. i.e. You have neglected the dynamic pressure.



      You need to use Bernoulli's principle
      $$ P + fracrho v^22 + rho h g = rm constant$$



      Your first method assumes that the top surface of the water is hardly moving (because it's surface area is much bigger than the nozzle area). Applying the same idea to the second method, then we can calculate the constant both in the water and immediately below the nozzle as
      $$P = P_A + fracrho v^22,$$
      where $P_A$ is atmospheric pressure and we neglect the small $rho h g$ term which increases pressure due to to the column of liquid above the nozzle on the LHS. If we further assume that $P gg P_A$ then $P = rho v^2/2$ and the rate of change of momentum of liquid from the nozzle is
      $$ F = rho A v^2 = 2PA$$






      share|cite|improve this answer












      $endgroup$



      The first method is correct. In the second you have assumed that the pressure at the nozzle is still $P$ despite the water exiting with some velocity. i.e. You have neglected the dynamic pressure.



      You need to use Bernoulli's principle
      $$ P + fracrho v^22 + rho h g = rm constant$$



      Your first method assumes that the top surface of the water is hardly moving (because it's surface area is much bigger than the nozzle area). Applying the same idea to the second method, then we can calculate the constant both in the water and immediately below the nozzle as
      $$P = P_A + fracrho v^22,$$
      where $P_A$ is atmospheric pressure and we neglect the small $rho h g$ term which increases pressure due to to the column of liquid above the nozzle on the LHS. If we further assume that $P gg P_A$ then $P = rho v^2/2$ and the rate of change of momentum of liquid from the nozzle is
      $$ F = rho A v^2 = 2PA$$







      share|cite|improve this answer















      share|cite|improve this answer




      share|cite|improve this answer








      edited Oct 3 at 6:42

























      answered Oct 1 at 13:50









      Rob JeffriesRob Jeffries

      77.5k7 gold badges161 silver badges270 bronze badges




      77.5k7 gold badges161 silver badges270 bronze badges










      • 3




        $begingroup$
        Thank you. Contrary to your second sentence, I intended to assume that the pressure at the nozzle was zero. I guess that the reason the second method predicts less force is that I didn't consider that there is dynamic pressure at the nozzle pushing UP on the water that is still in the bottle?
        $endgroup$
        – James
        Oct 1 at 14:15






      • 1




        $begingroup$
        @James yes, there is a pressure gradient within the water, so the narrower the cross section as the water approaches the nozzle, the faster the fluid, the lower the pressure.
        $endgroup$
        – Rick
        Oct 2 at 15:45










      • $begingroup$
        I edited the answer, hope my changes made it more clear for other readers.
        $endgroup$
        – Kevin Kostlan
        Oct 3 at 0:39







      • 3




        $begingroup$
        @KevinKostian Please don't edit an answer like that. Especially one that has already received upvotes in double figures. You doubled it in length and removed the crucial point/reference about "dynamic pressure", inserted your own peripheral example and thus completely changed the nature of the answer. You should post your own answer.
        $endgroup$
        – Rob Jeffries
        Oct 3 at 6:49













      • 3




        $begingroup$
        Thank you. Contrary to your second sentence, I intended to assume that the pressure at the nozzle was zero. I guess that the reason the second method predicts less force is that I didn't consider that there is dynamic pressure at the nozzle pushing UP on the water that is still in the bottle?
        $endgroup$
        – James
        Oct 1 at 14:15






      • 1




        $begingroup$
        @James yes, there is a pressure gradient within the water, so the narrower the cross section as the water approaches the nozzle, the faster the fluid, the lower the pressure.
        $endgroup$
        – Rick
        Oct 2 at 15:45










      • $begingroup$
        I edited the answer, hope my changes made it more clear for other readers.
        $endgroup$
        – Kevin Kostlan
        Oct 3 at 0:39







      • 3




        $begingroup$
        @KevinKostian Please don't edit an answer like that. Especially one that has already received upvotes in double figures. You doubled it in length and removed the crucial point/reference about "dynamic pressure", inserted your own peripheral example and thus completely changed the nature of the answer. You should post your own answer.
        $endgroup$
        – Rob Jeffries
        Oct 3 at 6:49








      3




      3




      $begingroup$
      Thank you. Contrary to your second sentence, I intended to assume that the pressure at the nozzle was zero. I guess that the reason the second method predicts less force is that I didn't consider that there is dynamic pressure at the nozzle pushing UP on the water that is still in the bottle?
      $endgroup$
      – James
      Oct 1 at 14:15




      $begingroup$
      Thank you. Contrary to your second sentence, I intended to assume that the pressure at the nozzle was zero. I guess that the reason the second method predicts less force is that I didn't consider that there is dynamic pressure at the nozzle pushing UP on the water that is still in the bottle?
      $endgroup$
      – James
      Oct 1 at 14:15




      1




      1




      $begingroup$
      @James yes, there is a pressure gradient within the water, so the narrower the cross section as the water approaches the nozzle, the faster the fluid, the lower the pressure.
      $endgroup$
      – Rick
      Oct 2 at 15:45




      $begingroup$
      @James yes, there is a pressure gradient within the water, so the narrower the cross section as the water approaches the nozzle, the faster the fluid, the lower the pressure.
      $endgroup$
      – Rick
      Oct 2 at 15:45












      $begingroup$
      I edited the answer, hope my changes made it more clear for other readers.
      $endgroup$
      – Kevin Kostlan
      Oct 3 at 0:39





      $begingroup$
      I edited the answer, hope my changes made it more clear for other readers.
      $endgroup$
      – Kevin Kostlan
      Oct 3 at 0:39





      3




      3




      $begingroup$
      @KevinKostian Please don't edit an answer like that. Especially one that has already received upvotes in double figures. You doubled it in length and removed the crucial point/reference about "dynamic pressure", inserted your own peripheral example and thus completely changed the nature of the answer. You should post your own answer.
      $endgroup$
      – Rob Jeffries
      Oct 3 at 6:49





      $begingroup$
      @KevinKostian Please don't edit an answer like that. Especially one that has already received upvotes in double figures. You doubled it in length and removed the crucial point/reference about "dynamic pressure", inserted your own peripheral example and thus completely changed the nature of the answer. You should post your own answer.
      $endgroup$
      – Rob Jeffries
      Oct 3 at 6:49














      8

















      $begingroup$

      Often these rockets are launched off a vertical section of pipe or rod that extends up inside the bottle, acting as a piston until the rocket has moved far enough to clear the end of the pipe. During this phase, your second method is correct: the thrust is simply the nozzle area times the pressure.



      Why should the thrust increase when the rocket separates from the piston? Let me try to provide an intuitive justification. I won't prove that the thrust doubles, just dispel the notion that it should remain unchanged.



      Let's say that somehow the piston is able to extend itself by constantly adding little cylindrical plugs to itself. These plugs are initially arranged in a tall rack just beside the rocket; as the rocket moves upward, the piston keeps grabbing a plug from the rack, somehow transporting it through the wall of the rocket, and adding it on to the end. The rocket never leaves the piston, and it's clear that the thrust remains just $PA$.



      But this is essentially what is actually happening as the rocket expels water, with one exception. Each little bit of water leaving the nozzle can be thought of as a "plug", and the force acting to separate it from the rest of the rocket is still $PA$. But, unlike the plugs waiting in the rack at rest relative to the earth, each one of the water plugs is moving upward a bit faster than the previous one was--just fast enough to match the velocity of the rocket. The momentum transferred to the rocket by these moving plugs constitutes an additional force relative to the case in which the plugs have zero velocity.



      Of course, this analogy of plugs being added during flight does not correspond to the actual case of a rocket that loses mass over time. But that difference does not affect the instantaneous thrust.






      share|cite|improve this answer












      $endgroup$


















        8

















        $begingroup$

        Often these rockets are launched off a vertical section of pipe or rod that extends up inside the bottle, acting as a piston until the rocket has moved far enough to clear the end of the pipe. During this phase, your second method is correct: the thrust is simply the nozzle area times the pressure.



        Why should the thrust increase when the rocket separates from the piston? Let me try to provide an intuitive justification. I won't prove that the thrust doubles, just dispel the notion that it should remain unchanged.



        Let's say that somehow the piston is able to extend itself by constantly adding little cylindrical plugs to itself. These plugs are initially arranged in a tall rack just beside the rocket; as the rocket moves upward, the piston keeps grabbing a plug from the rack, somehow transporting it through the wall of the rocket, and adding it on to the end. The rocket never leaves the piston, and it's clear that the thrust remains just $PA$.



        But this is essentially what is actually happening as the rocket expels water, with one exception. Each little bit of water leaving the nozzle can be thought of as a "plug", and the force acting to separate it from the rest of the rocket is still $PA$. But, unlike the plugs waiting in the rack at rest relative to the earth, each one of the water plugs is moving upward a bit faster than the previous one was--just fast enough to match the velocity of the rocket. The momentum transferred to the rocket by these moving plugs constitutes an additional force relative to the case in which the plugs have zero velocity.



        Of course, this analogy of plugs being added during flight does not correspond to the actual case of a rocket that loses mass over time. But that difference does not affect the instantaneous thrust.






        share|cite|improve this answer












        $endgroup$
















          8















          8











          8







          $begingroup$

          Often these rockets are launched off a vertical section of pipe or rod that extends up inside the bottle, acting as a piston until the rocket has moved far enough to clear the end of the pipe. During this phase, your second method is correct: the thrust is simply the nozzle area times the pressure.



          Why should the thrust increase when the rocket separates from the piston? Let me try to provide an intuitive justification. I won't prove that the thrust doubles, just dispel the notion that it should remain unchanged.



          Let's say that somehow the piston is able to extend itself by constantly adding little cylindrical plugs to itself. These plugs are initially arranged in a tall rack just beside the rocket; as the rocket moves upward, the piston keeps grabbing a plug from the rack, somehow transporting it through the wall of the rocket, and adding it on to the end. The rocket never leaves the piston, and it's clear that the thrust remains just $PA$.



          But this is essentially what is actually happening as the rocket expels water, with one exception. Each little bit of water leaving the nozzle can be thought of as a "plug", and the force acting to separate it from the rest of the rocket is still $PA$. But, unlike the plugs waiting in the rack at rest relative to the earth, each one of the water plugs is moving upward a bit faster than the previous one was--just fast enough to match the velocity of the rocket. The momentum transferred to the rocket by these moving plugs constitutes an additional force relative to the case in which the plugs have zero velocity.



          Of course, this analogy of plugs being added during flight does not correspond to the actual case of a rocket that loses mass over time. But that difference does not affect the instantaneous thrust.






          share|cite|improve this answer












          $endgroup$



          Often these rockets are launched off a vertical section of pipe or rod that extends up inside the bottle, acting as a piston until the rocket has moved far enough to clear the end of the pipe. During this phase, your second method is correct: the thrust is simply the nozzle area times the pressure.



          Why should the thrust increase when the rocket separates from the piston? Let me try to provide an intuitive justification. I won't prove that the thrust doubles, just dispel the notion that it should remain unchanged.



          Let's say that somehow the piston is able to extend itself by constantly adding little cylindrical plugs to itself. These plugs are initially arranged in a tall rack just beside the rocket; as the rocket moves upward, the piston keeps grabbing a plug from the rack, somehow transporting it through the wall of the rocket, and adding it on to the end. The rocket never leaves the piston, and it's clear that the thrust remains just $PA$.



          But this is essentially what is actually happening as the rocket expels water, with one exception. Each little bit of water leaving the nozzle can be thought of as a "plug", and the force acting to separate it from the rest of the rocket is still $PA$. But, unlike the plugs waiting in the rack at rest relative to the earth, each one of the water plugs is moving upward a bit faster than the previous one was--just fast enough to match the velocity of the rocket. The momentum transferred to the rocket by these moving plugs constitutes an additional force relative to the case in which the plugs have zero velocity.



          Of course, this analogy of plugs being added during flight does not correspond to the actual case of a rocket that loses mass over time. But that difference does not affect the instantaneous thrust.







          share|cite|improve this answer















          share|cite|improve this answer




          share|cite|improve this answer








          edited Oct 1 at 17:03

























          answered Oct 1 at 15:42









          Ben51Ben51

          5,58211 silver badges35 bronze badges




          5,58211 silver badges35 bronze badges
























              5

















              $begingroup$

              The pressure drop from tank pressure to atmospheric pressure does not occur instantly at the nozzle but rather is spread out according to the area of the flow channel. This reduced pressure results in additional thrust that was not accounted for in your second solution. Here is one way to calculate this additional missing thrust:



              Bernoulli's equation (your second to last equation) applies:



              $$P+frac12rho v^2 = constant$$



              we can combine this with your mass flow equation to get:



              $$P+frac12rho left(fracdot mrho Aright)^2 = constant$$



              Your original answer assumes negligible velocity/large area at the water surface1:



              $$P_tank + 0 = constant$$



              This gives us our constant:



              $$P+frac12rho left(fracdot mrho Aright)^2 = P_tank$$



              and we know the pressure at the exit is atmospheric/ 0 gauge pressure:



              $$0 + frac12rho left(fracdot mrho A_exitright)^2 = P_tank$$



              We can solve for $dot m$:



              $$dot m = A_exitsqrt2 rho P_tank$$



              Plugging back in:



              $$P+P_tankleft(fracA_exitAright)^2 = P_tank$$



              Solving for pressure:



              $$P = P_tank left(1-left(fracA_exitAright)^2right)$$



              So if we wanted to calculate the additional thrust due to the pressure ebeing lower near the nozzle we'd need to integrate the pressure by the area:



              $$F = F_up - F_down = int_A_exit^infty left (P_tank - P_tank left(1-left(fracA_exitAright)^2right) right) ; dA $$



              $$F = P_tank int_A_exit^infty fracA_exit^2A^2 ; dA $$



              $$F = P_tank A_exit $$



              So there's the missing $PA$ from your second solution.



              1: You can make your equations more accurate (especially for thin bottle rockets) by using the actual cross sectional area at the water surface instead of infinity both here and in the limit of the integral.






              share|cite|improve this answer












              $endgroup$


















                5

















                $begingroup$

                The pressure drop from tank pressure to atmospheric pressure does not occur instantly at the nozzle but rather is spread out according to the area of the flow channel. This reduced pressure results in additional thrust that was not accounted for in your second solution. Here is one way to calculate this additional missing thrust:



                Bernoulli's equation (your second to last equation) applies:



                $$P+frac12rho v^2 = constant$$



                we can combine this with your mass flow equation to get:



                $$P+frac12rho left(fracdot mrho Aright)^2 = constant$$



                Your original answer assumes negligible velocity/large area at the water surface1:



                $$P_tank + 0 = constant$$



                This gives us our constant:



                $$P+frac12rho left(fracdot mrho Aright)^2 = P_tank$$



                and we know the pressure at the exit is atmospheric/ 0 gauge pressure:



                $$0 + frac12rho left(fracdot mrho A_exitright)^2 = P_tank$$



                We can solve for $dot m$:



                $$dot m = A_exitsqrt2 rho P_tank$$



                Plugging back in:



                $$P+P_tankleft(fracA_exitAright)^2 = P_tank$$



                Solving for pressure:



                $$P = P_tank left(1-left(fracA_exitAright)^2right)$$



                So if we wanted to calculate the additional thrust due to the pressure ebeing lower near the nozzle we'd need to integrate the pressure by the area:



                $$F = F_up - F_down = int_A_exit^infty left (P_tank - P_tank left(1-left(fracA_exitAright)^2right) right) ; dA $$



                $$F = P_tank int_A_exit^infty fracA_exit^2A^2 ; dA $$



                $$F = P_tank A_exit $$



                So there's the missing $PA$ from your second solution.



                1: You can make your equations more accurate (especially for thin bottle rockets) by using the actual cross sectional area at the water surface instead of infinity both here and in the limit of the integral.






                share|cite|improve this answer












                $endgroup$
















                  5















                  5











                  5







                  $begingroup$

                  The pressure drop from tank pressure to atmospheric pressure does not occur instantly at the nozzle but rather is spread out according to the area of the flow channel. This reduced pressure results in additional thrust that was not accounted for in your second solution. Here is one way to calculate this additional missing thrust:



                  Bernoulli's equation (your second to last equation) applies:



                  $$P+frac12rho v^2 = constant$$



                  we can combine this with your mass flow equation to get:



                  $$P+frac12rho left(fracdot mrho Aright)^2 = constant$$



                  Your original answer assumes negligible velocity/large area at the water surface1:



                  $$P_tank + 0 = constant$$



                  This gives us our constant:



                  $$P+frac12rho left(fracdot mrho Aright)^2 = P_tank$$



                  and we know the pressure at the exit is atmospheric/ 0 gauge pressure:



                  $$0 + frac12rho left(fracdot mrho A_exitright)^2 = P_tank$$



                  We can solve for $dot m$:



                  $$dot m = A_exitsqrt2 rho P_tank$$



                  Plugging back in:



                  $$P+P_tankleft(fracA_exitAright)^2 = P_tank$$



                  Solving for pressure:



                  $$P = P_tank left(1-left(fracA_exitAright)^2right)$$



                  So if we wanted to calculate the additional thrust due to the pressure ebeing lower near the nozzle we'd need to integrate the pressure by the area:



                  $$F = F_up - F_down = int_A_exit^infty left (P_tank - P_tank left(1-left(fracA_exitAright)^2right) right) ; dA $$



                  $$F = P_tank int_A_exit^infty fracA_exit^2A^2 ; dA $$



                  $$F = P_tank A_exit $$



                  So there's the missing $PA$ from your second solution.



                  1: You can make your equations more accurate (especially for thin bottle rockets) by using the actual cross sectional area at the water surface instead of infinity both here and in the limit of the integral.






                  share|cite|improve this answer












                  $endgroup$



                  The pressure drop from tank pressure to atmospheric pressure does not occur instantly at the nozzle but rather is spread out according to the area of the flow channel. This reduced pressure results in additional thrust that was not accounted for in your second solution. Here is one way to calculate this additional missing thrust:



                  Bernoulli's equation (your second to last equation) applies:



                  $$P+frac12rho v^2 = constant$$



                  we can combine this with your mass flow equation to get:



                  $$P+frac12rho left(fracdot mrho Aright)^2 = constant$$



                  Your original answer assumes negligible velocity/large area at the water surface1:



                  $$P_tank + 0 = constant$$



                  This gives us our constant:



                  $$P+frac12rho left(fracdot mrho Aright)^2 = P_tank$$



                  and we know the pressure at the exit is atmospheric/ 0 gauge pressure:



                  $$0 + frac12rho left(fracdot mrho A_exitright)^2 = P_tank$$



                  We can solve for $dot m$:



                  $$dot m = A_exitsqrt2 rho P_tank$$



                  Plugging back in:



                  $$P+P_tankleft(fracA_exitAright)^2 = P_tank$$



                  Solving for pressure:



                  $$P = P_tank left(1-left(fracA_exitAright)^2right)$$



                  So if we wanted to calculate the additional thrust due to the pressure ebeing lower near the nozzle we'd need to integrate the pressure by the area:



                  $$F = F_up - F_down = int_A_exit^infty left (P_tank - P_tank left(1-left(fracA_exitAright)^2right) right) ; dA $$



                  $$F = P_tank int_A_exit^infty fracA_exit^2A^2 ; dA $$



                  $$F = P_tank A_exit $$



                  So there's the missing $PA$ from your second solution.



                  1: You can make your equations more accurate (especially for thin bottle rockets) by using the actual cross sectional area at the water surface instead of infinity both here and in the limit of the integral.







                  share|cite|improve this answer















                  share|cite|improve this answer




                  share|cite|improve this answer








                  edited Oct 2 at 15:39

























                  answered Oct 2 at 13:46









                  RickRick

                  3,49412 silver badges27 bronze badges




                  3,49412 silver badges27 bronze badges
























                      1

















                      $begingroup$

                      As you have neglected atmospheric pressure, let's assume that you are doing the experiment in a vacuum(I know that there is a spherical cow analogy somewhere :) ). You are assuming that the pressure is exerted by air inside the ballon at the surface. The air will exert the pressure in the empty part as shown by your arrows as well as on the horizontal surface of the water. Now, this will cancel out due to a complete loop. Now, if the balloon was closed there would have been no net force as the downward force due to air pressure would have been balanced by the normal force. In your 1st method, the pressure you have taken is the air pressure present inside the ballon. In your second method, you are assuming the same pressure at the bottom of the nozzle which is incorrect.






                      share|cite|improve this answer










                      $endgroup$









                      • 1




                        $begingroup$
                        I don't fully understand your answer. Are you saying that I am incorrect in the second method because the water in close proximity to the nozzle opening is at a lower pressure than the pressure of the compressed air? So the red arrows near the nozzle opening should be drawn to shorter length? Thank you.
                        $endgroup$
                        – James
                        Oct 1 at 13:34










                      • $begingroup$
                        The post says he uses "ga[u]ge pressure" which means that the external atmospheric pressure is already accounted for. You're on the right track here, but jumped too soon.
                        $endgroup$
                        – dmckee
                        Oct 1 at 14:58






                      • 1




                        $begingroup$
                        @James Those observations are correct (see my answer for math and details)
                        $endgroup$
                        – Rick
                        Oct 2 at 15:43















                      1

















                      $begingroup$

                      As you have neglected atmospheric pressure, let's assume that you are doing the experiment in a vacuum(I know that there is a spherical cow analogy somewhere :) ). You are assuming that the pressure is exerted by air inside the ballon at the surface. The air will exert the pressure in the empty part as shown by your arrows as well as on the horizontal surface of the water. Now, this will cancel out due to a complete loop. Now, if the balloon was closed there would have been no net force as the downward force due to air pressure would have been balanced by the normal force. In your 1st method, the pressure you have taken is the air pressure present inside the ballon. In your second method, you are assuming the same pressure at the bottom of the nozzle which is incorrect.






                      share|cite|improve this answer










                      $endgroup$









                      • 1




                        $begingroup$
                        I don't fully understand your answer. Are you saying that I am incorrect in the second method because the water in close proximity to the nozzle opening is at a lower pressure than the pressure of the compressed air? So the red arrows near the nozzle opening should be drawn to shorter length? Thank you.
                        $endgroup$
                        – James
                        Oct 1 at 13:34










                      • $begingroup$
                        The post says he uses "ga[u]ge pressure" which means that the external atmospheric pressure is already accounted for. You're on the right track here, but jumped too soon.
                        $endgroup$
                        – dmckee
                        Oct 1 at 14:58






                      • 1




                        $begingroup$
                        @James Those observations are correct (see my answer for math and details)
                        $endgroup$
                        – Rick
                        Oct 2 at 15:43













                      1















                      1











                      1







                      $begingroup$

                      As you have neglected atmospheric pressure, let's assume that you are doing the experiment in a vacuum(I know that there is a spherical cow analogy somewhere :) ). You are assuming that the pressure is exerted by air inside the ballon at the surface. The air will exert the pressure in the empty part as shown by your arrows as well as on the horizontal surface of the water. Now, this will cancel out due to a complete loop. Now, if the balloon was closed there would have been no net force as the downward force due to air pressure would have been balanced by the normal force. In your 1st method, the pressure you have taken is the air pressure present inside the ballon. In your second method, you are assuming the same pressure at the bottom of the nozzle which is incorrect.






                      share|cite|improve this answer










                      $endgroup$



                      As you have neglected atmospheric pressure, let's assume that you are doing the experiment in a vacuum(I know that there is a spherical cow analogy somewhere :) ). You are assuming that the pressure is exerted by air inside the ballon at the surface. The air will exert the pressure in the empty part as shown by your arrows as well as on the horizontal surface of the water. Now, this will cancel out due to a complete loop. Now, if the balloon was closed there would have been no net force as the downward force due to air pressure would have been balanced by the normal force. In your 1st method, the pressure you have taken is the air pressure present inside the ballon. In your second method, you are assuming the same pressure at the bottom of the nozzle which is incorrect.







                      share|cite|improve this answer













                      share|cite|improve this answer




                      share|cite|improve this answer










                      answered Oct 1 at 13:16









                      Rishabh JainRishabh Jain

                      1,1743 silver badges11 bronze badges




                      1,1743 silver badges11 bronze badges










                      • 1




                        $begingroup$
                        I don't fully understand your answer. Are you saying that I am incorrect in the second method because the water in close proximity to the nozzle opening is at a lower pressure than the pressure of the compressed air? So the red arrows near the nozzle opening should be drawn to shorter length? Thank you.
                        $endgroup$
                        – James
                        Oct 1 at 13:34










                      • $begingroup$
                        The post says he uses "ga[u]ge pressure" which means that the external atmospheric pressure is already accounted for. You're on the right track here, but jumped too soon.
                        $endgroup$
                        – dmckee
                        Oct 1 at 14:58






                      • 1




                        $begingroup$
                        @James Those observations are correct (see my answer for math and details)
                        $endgroup$
                        – Rick
                        Oct 2 at 15:43












                      • 1




                        $begingroup$
                        I don't fully understand your answer. Are you saying that I am incorrect in the second method because the water in close proximity to the nozzle opening is at a lower pressure than the pressure of the compressed air? So the red arrows near the nozzle opening should be drawn to shorter length? Thank you.
                        $endgroup$
                        – James
                        Oct 1 at 13:34










                      • $begingroup$
                        The post says he uses "ga[u]ge pressure" which means that the external atmospheric pressure is already accounted for. You're on the right track here, but jumped too soon.
                        $endgroup$
                        – dmckee
                        Oct 1 at 14:58






                      • 1




                        $begingroup$
                        @James Those observations are correct (see my answer for math and details)
                        $endgroup$
                        – Rick
                        Oct 2 at 15:43







                      1




                      1




                      $begingroup$
                      I don't fully understand your answer. Are you saying that I am incorrect in the second method because the water in close proximity to the nozzle opening is at a lower pressure than the pressure of the compressed air? So the red arrows near the nozzle opening should be drawn to shorter length? Thank you.
                      $endgroup$
                      – James
                      Oct 1 at 13:34




                      $begingroup$
                      I don't fully understand your answer. Are you saying that I am incorrect in the second method because the water in close proximity to the nozzle opening is at a lower pressure than the pressure of the compressed air? So the red arrows near the nozzle opening should be drawn to shorter length? Thank you.
                      $endgroup$
                      – James
                      Oct 1 at 13:34












                      $begingroup$
                      The post says he uses "ga[u]ge pressure" which means that the external atmospheric pressure is already accounted for. You're on the right track here, but jumped too soon.
                      $endgroup$
                      – dmckee
                      Oct 1 at 14:58




                      $begingroup$
                      The post says he uses "ga[u]ge pressure" which means that the external atmospheric pressure is already accounted for. You're on the right track here, but jumped too soon.
                      $endgroup$
                      – dmckee
                      Oct 1 at 14:58




                      1




                      1




                      $begingroup$
                      @James Those observations are correct (see my answer for math and details)
                      $endgroup$
                      – Rick
                      Oct 2 at 15:43




                      $begingroup$
                      @James Those observations are correct (see my answer for math and details)
                      $endgroup$
                      – Rick
                      Oct 2 at 15:43











                      1

















                      $begingroup$

                      There is a simple intuitive explanation for the factor of two difference. The thrust has two contributions, as follows.



                      1) The air pressure in the rocket imposes a force down the nozzle of F=PA exactly as you surmised in your second method.



                      2) The exhaust water at the instant it leaves the nozzle is still pressurised, and imposes a back-pressure on the rocket. The force due to the back pressure is also straightforwardly F=PA.



                      The combined effect is therefore 2PA.






                      share|cite|improve this answer












                      $endgroup$













                      • $begingroup$
                        While pulse detonation propulsion is a thing, it's not really related to the thrust produced in this case. The first method is exactly calculating the thrust due to throwing mass out the back: $F=dot m v = 2 AP$ The water doesn't expand (much) under relaxation and there is no additional thrust generated from this relaxation.
                        $endgroup$
                        – Rick
                        Oct 2 at 19:14










                      • $begingroup$
                        Hi Rick, many thanks. It would be really helpful if you could explain the logic for your last sentence. Best wishes.
                        $endgroup$
                        – Marco Ocram
                        Oct 2 at 19:47






                      • 1




                        $begingroup$
                        Sure, the additional thrust generated by pulse detonation or underexpanded gas flows manifests as the pressure at the exit being above atmospheric, as the gas expands it continues to accelerate and decrease in pressure until it reaches atmospheric pressure. Since water is incompressible, it doesn't expand, which means the exit velocity is its final velocity and there is no further pressure drop. This means in the case of water (or a properly expanded gas) there is no additional thrust beyond the $dot m v$.
                        $endgroup$
                        – Rick
                        Oct 3 at 11:15











                      • $begingroup$
                        Hi Rick, your second sentence is not exactly right. Water does compress, and behaves elastically within limits. It has a high bulk modulus compared to air (about 2.2GPa compared with 100kPa) so the physical change in its dimensions resulting from applied pressure is much smaller; nonetheless it releases energy when it relaxes instantaneously, which creates an impulse effect. The same effect in steel (bulk modulus 160Gpa) is what causes the central balls in a Newton's cradle to pass an impulse while appearing to remain static.
                        $endgroup$
                        – Marco Ocram
                        Oct 3 at 13:12











                      • $begingroup$
                        Hi Rick, I've updated the answer to include an analogous design of the rocket to illustrate the effect of ejecting a compressed elastic mass. Do you fancy calculating the thrust?
                        $endgroup$
                        – Marco Ocram
                        Oct 3 at 13:50















                      1

















                      $begingroup$

                      There is a simple intuitive explanation for the factor of two difference. The thrust has two contributions, as follows.



                      1) The air pressure in the rocket imposes a force down the nozzle of F=PA exactly as you surmised in your second method.



                      2) The exhaust water at the instant it leaves the nozzle is still pressurised, and imposes a back-pressure on the rocket. The force due to the back pressure is also straightforwardly F=PA.



                      The combined effect is therefore 2PA.






                      share|cite|improve this answer












                      $endgroup$













                      • $begingroup$
                        While pulse detonation propulsion is a thing, it's not really related to the thrust produced in this case. The first method is exactly calculating the thrust due to throwing mass out the back: $F=dot m v = 2 AP$ The water doesn't expand (much) under relaxation and there is no additional thrust generated from this relaxation.
                        $endgroup$
                        – Rick
                        Oct 2 at 19:14










                      • $begingroup$
                        Hi Rick, many thanks. It would be really helpful if you could explain the logic for your last sentence. Best wishes.
                        $endgroup$
                        – Marco Ocram
                        Oct 2 at 19:47






                      • 1




                        $begingroup$
                        Sure, the additional thrust generated by pulse detonation or underexpanded gas flows manifests as the pressure at the exit being above atmospheric, as the gas expands it continues to accelerate and decrease in pressure until it reaches atmospheric pressure. Since water is incompressible, it doesn't expand, which means the exit velocity is its final velocity and there is no further pressure drop. This means in the case of water (or a properly expanded gas) there is no additional thrust beyond the $dot m v$.
                        $endgroup$
                        – Rick
                        Oct 3 at 11:15











                      • $begingroup$
                        Hi Rick, your second sentence is not exactly right. Water does compress, and behaves elastically within limits. It has a high bulk modulus compared to air (about 2.2GPa compared with 100kPa) so the physical change in its dimensions resulting from applied pressure is much smaller; nonetheless it releases energy when it relaxes instantaneously, which creates an impulse effect. The same effect in steel (bulk modulus 160Gpa) is what causes the central balls in a Newton's cradle to pass an impulse while appearing to remain static.
                        $endgroup$
                        – Marco Ocram
                        Oct 3 at 13:12











                      • $begingroup$
                        Hi Rick, I've updated the answer to include an analogous design of the rocket to illustrate the effect of ejecting a compressed elastic mass. Do you fancy calculating the thrust?
                        $endgroup$
                        – Marco Ocram
                        Oct 3 at 13:50













                      1















                      1











                      1







                      $begingroup$

                      There is a simple intuitive explanation for the factor of two difference. The thrust has two contributions, as follows.



                      1) The air pressure in the rocket imposes a force down the nozzle of F=PA exactly as you surmised in your second method.



                      2) The exhaust water at the instant it leaves the nozzle is still pressurised, and imposes a back-pressure on the rocket. The force due to the back pressure is also straightforwardly F=PA.



                      The combined effect is therefore 2PA.






                      share|cite|improve this answer












                      $endgroup$



                      There is a simple intuitive explanation for the factor of two difference. The thrust has two contributions, as follows.



                      1) The air pressure in the rocket imposes a force down the nozzle of F=PA exactly as you surmised in your second method.



                      2) The exhaust water at the instant it leaves the nozzle is still pressurised, and imposes a back-pressure on the rocket. The force due to the back pressure is also straightforwardly F=PA.



                      The combined effect is therefore 2PA.







                      share|cite|improve this answer















                      share|cite|improve this answer




                      share|cite|improve this answer








                      edited Oct 5 at 9:23

























                      answered Oct 2 at 18:44









                      Marco OcramMarco Ocram

                      5,03210 silver badges23 bronze badges




                      5,03210 silver badges23 bronze badges














                      • $begingroup$
                        While pulse detonation propulsion is a thing, it's not really related to the thrust produced in this case. The first method is exactly calculating the thrust due to throwing mass out the back: $F=dot m v = 2 AP$ The water doesn't expand (much) under relaxation and there is no additional thrust generated from this relaxation.
                        $endgroup$
                        – Rick
                        Oct 2 at 19:14










                      • $begingroup$
                        Hi Rick, many thanks. It would be really helpful if you could explain the logic for your last sentence. Best wishes.
                        $endgroup$
                        – Marco Ocram
                        Oct 2 at 19:47






                      • 1




                        $begingroup$
                        Sure, the additional thrust generated by pulse detonation or underexpanded gas flows manifests as the pressure at the exit being above atmospheric, as the gas expands it continues to accelerate and decrease in pressure until it reaches atmospheric pressure. Since water is incompressible, it doesn't expand, which means the exit velocity is its final velocity and there is no further pressure drop. This means in the case of water (or a properly expanded gas) there is no additional thrust beyond the $dot m v$.
                        $endgroup$
                        – Rick
                        Oct 3 at 11:15











                      • $begingroup$
                        Hi Rick, your second sentence is not exactly right. Water does compress, and behaves elastically within limits. It has a high bulk modulus compared to air (about 2.2GPa compared with 100kPa) so the physical change in its dimensions resulting from applied pressure is much smaller; nonetheless it releases energy when it relaxes instantaneously, which creates an impulse effect. The same effect in steel (bulk modulus 160Gpa) is what causes the central balls in a Newton's cradle to pass an impulse while appearing to remain static.
                        $endgroup$
                        – Marco Ocram
                        Oct 3 at 13:12











                      • $begingroup$
                        Hi Rick, I've updated the answer to include an analogous design of the rocket to illustrate the effect of ejecting a compressed elastic mass. Do you fancy calculating the thrust?
                        $endgroup$
                        – Marco Ocram
                        Oct 3 at 13:50
















                      • $begingroup$
                        While pulse detonation propulsion is a thing, it's not really related to the thrust produced in this case. The first method is exactly calculating the thrust due to throwing mass out the back: $F=dot m v = 2 AP$ The water doesn't expand (much) under relaxation and there is no additional thrust generated from this relaxation.
                        $endgroup$
                        – Rick
                        Oct 2 at 19:14










                      • $begingroup$
                        Hi Rick, many thanks. It would be really helpful if you could explain the logic for your last sentence. Best wishes.
                        $endgroup$
                        – Marco Ocram
                        Oct 2 at 19:47






                      • 1




                        $begingroup$
                        Sure, the additional thrust generated by pulse detonation or underexpanded gas flows manifests as the pressure at the exit being above atmospheric, as the gas expands it continues to accelerate and decrease in pressure until it reaches atmospheric pressure. Since water is incompressible, it doesn't expand, which means the exit velocity is its final velocity and there is no further pressure drop. This means in the case of water (or a properly expanded gas) there is no additional thrust beyond the $dot m v$.
                        $endgroup$
                        – Rick
                        Oct 3 at 11:15











                      • $begingroup$
                        Hi Rick, your second sentence is not exactly right. Water does compress, and behaves elastically within limits. It has a high bulk modulus compared to air (about 2.2GPa compared with 100kPa) so the physical change in its dimensions resulting from applied pressure is much smaller; nonetheless it releases energy when it relaxes instantaneously, which creates an impulse effect. The same effect in steel (bulk modulus 160Gpa) is what causes the central balls in a Newton's cradle to pass an impulse while appearing to remain static.
                        $endgroup$
                        – Marco Ocram
                        Oct 3 at 13:12











                      • $begingroup$
                        Hi Rick, I've updated the answer to include an analogous design of the rocket to illustrate the effect of ejecting a compressed elastic mass. Do you fancy calculating the thrust?
                        $endgroup$
                        – Marco Ocram
                        Oct 3 at 13:50















                      $begingroup$
                      While pulse detonation propulsion is a thing, it's not really related to the thrust produced in this case. The first method is exactly calculating the thrust due to throwing mass out the back: $F=dot m v = 2 AP$ The water doesn't expand (much) under relaxation and there is no additional thrust generated from this relaxation.
                      $endgroup$
                      – Rick
                      Oct 2 at 19:14




                      $begingroup$
                      While pulse detonation propulsion is a thing, it's not really related to the thrust produced in this case. The first method is exactly calculating the thrust due to throwing mass out the back: $F=dot m v = 2 AP$ The water doesn't expand (much) under relaxation and there is no additional thrust generated from this relaxation.
                      $endgroup$
                      – Rick
                      Oct 2 at 19:14












                      $begingroup$
                      Hi Rick, many thanks. It would be really helpful if you could explain the logic for your last sentence. Best wishes.
                      $endgroup$
                      – Marco Ocram
                      Oct 2 at 19:47




                      $begingroup$
                      Hi Rick, many thanks. It would be really helpful if you could explain the logic for your last sentence. Best wishes.
                      $endgroup$
                      – Marco Ocram
                      Oct 2 at 19:47




                      1




                      1




                      $begingroup$
                      Sure, the additional thrust generated by pulse detonation or underexpanded gas flows manifests as the pressure at the exit being above atmospheric, as the gas expands it continues to accelerate and decrease in pressure until it reaches atmospheric pressure. Since water is incompressible, it doesn't expand, which means the exit velocity is its final velocity and there is no further pressure drop. This means in the case of water (or a properly expanded gas) there is no additional thrust beyond the $dot m v$.
                      $endgroup$
                      – Rick
                      Oct 3 at 11:15





                      $begingroup$
                      Sure, the additional thrust generated by pulse detonation or underexpanded gas flows manifests as the pressure at the exit being above atmospheric, as the gas expands it continues to accelerate and decrease in pressure until it reaches atmospheric pressure. Since water is incompressible, it doesn't expand, which means the exit velocity is its final velocity and there is no further pressure drop. This means in the case of water (or a properly expanded gas) there is no additional thrust beyond the $dot m v$.
                      $endgroup$
                      – Rick
                      Oct 3 at 11:15













                      $begingroup$
                      Hi Rick, your second sentence is not exactly right. Water does compress, and behaves elastically within limits. It has a high bulk modulus compared to air (about 2.2GPa compared with 100kPa) so the physical change in its dimensions resulting from applied pressure is much smaller; nonetheless it releases energy when it relaxes instantaneously, which creates an impulse effect. The same effect in steel (bulk modulus 160Gpa) is what causes the central balls in a Newton's cradle to pass an impulse while appearing to remain static.
                      $endgroup$
                      – Marco Ocram
                      Oct 3 at 13:12





                      $begingroup$
                      Hi Rick, your second sentence is not exactly right. Water does compress, and behaves elastically within limits. It has a high bulk modulus compared to air (about 2.2GPa compared with 100kPa) so the physical change in its dimensions resulting from applied pressure is much smaller; nonetheless it releases energy when it relaxes instantaneously, which creates an impulse effect. The same effect in steel (bulk modulus 160Gpa) is what causes the central balls in a Newton's cradle to pass an impulse while appearing to remain static.
                      $endgroup$
                      – Marco Ocram
                      Oct 3 at 13:12













                      $begingroup$
                      Hi Rick, I've updated the answer to include an analogous design of the rocket to illustrate the effect of ejecting a compressed elastic mass. Do you fancy calculating the thrust?
                      $endgroup$
                      – Marco Ocram
                      Oct 3 at 13:50




                      $begingroup$
                      Hi Rick, I've updated the answer to include an analogous design of the rocket to illustrate the effect of ejecting a compressed elastic mass. Do you fancy calculating the thrust?
                      $endgroup$
                      – Marco Ocram
                      Oct 3 at 13:50


















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