What would the EU’s position be with respect to a United Ireland?If the UK government did not follow through with Brexit what would happen?What is the cause of the discrepancy between Scottish and English-Welsh results in the Brexit referendum?Is there a clear statement from the DUP on their position on the post-Brexit border with Ireland?Why can't Northern Ireland just have a stay/leave referendum?Why does Brexit threaten the Good Friday Agreement from 1998?Will the DUP agree to a Northern Ireland Referendum?Have there been attempts to integrate the Catholics & Protestants of Northern Ireland?
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What would the EU’s position be with respect to a United Ireland?
If the UK government did not follow through with Brexit what would happen?What is the cause of the discrepancy between Scottish and English-Welsh results in the Brexit referendum?Is there a clear statement from the DUP on their position on the post-Brexit border with Ireland?Why can't Northern Ireland just have a stay/leave referendum?Why does Brexit threaten the Good Friday Agreement from 1998?Will the DUP agree to a Northern Ireland Referendum?Have there been attempts to integrate the Catholics & Protestants of Northern Ireland?
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During the Scottish referendum of 2013, it was made clear that the United Kingdom is a member of the European Union and any part of the UK seceding from it would be treated as a 3rd country, and would have to apply to once again become a member of the EU.
If there were to be a united Ireland, what would the position of the EU be, if it is already defined?
european-union brexit northern-ireland ireland
edited Sep 27 at 18:59
Stormblessed
3,8582 gold badges18 silver badges46 bronze badges
asked Sep 27 at 11:08
RichardRichard
1515 bronze badges
add a comment
|
During the Scottish referendum of 2013, it was made clear that the United Kingdom is a member of the European Union and any part of the UK seceding from it would be treated as a 3rd country, and would have to apply to once again become a member of the EU.
If there were to be a united Ireland, what would the position of the EU be, if it is already defined?
european-union brexit northern-ireland ireland
edited Sep 27 at 18:59
Stormblessed
3,8582 gold badges18 silver badges46 bronze badges
asked Sep 27 at 11:08
RichardRichard
1515 bronze badges
6
The difference here is that NI would also be joining an EU member, as opposed to becoming a newly independent country. If it were to join Norway, of course, it would be a different story.
– phoog
Sep 27 at 13:40
1
@phoog is right: this is not about a hypothetical independent NI (which would never be economically viable, but that's an independent story)
– smci
Sep 28 at 3:18
add a comment
|
During the Scottish referendum of 2013, it was made clear that the United Kingdom is a member of the European Union and any part of the UK seceding from it would be treated as a 3rd country, and would have to apply to once again become a member of the EU.
If there were to be a united Ireland, what would the position of the EU be, if it is already defined?
european-union brexit northern-ireland ireland
edited Sep 27 at 18:59
Stormblessed
3,8582 gold badges18 silver badges46 bronze badges
asked Sep 27 at 11:08
RichardRichard
1515 bronze badges
During the Scottish referendum of 2013, it was made clear that the United Kingdom is a member of the European Union and any part of the UK seceding from it would be treated as a 3rd country, and would have to apply to once again become a member of the EU.
If there were to be a united Ireland, what would the position of the EU be, if it is already defined?
european-union brexit northern-ireland ireland
european-union brexit northern-ireland ireland
edited Sep 27 at 18:59
Stormblessed
3,8582 gold badges18 silver badges46 bronze badges
asked Sep 27 at 11:08
RichardRichard
1515 bronze badges
edited Sep 27 at 18:59
Stormblessed
3,8582 gold badges18 silver badges46 bronze badges
asked Sep 27 at 11:08
RichardRichard
1515 bronze badges
edited Sep 27 at 18:59
Stormblessed
3,8582 gold badges18 silver badges46 bronze badges
edited Sep 27 at 18:59
Stormblessed
3,8582 gold badges18 silver badges46 bronze badges
edited Sep 27 at 18:59
Stormblessed
3,8582 gold badges18 silver badges46 bronze badges
3,8582 gold badges18 silver badges46 bronze badges
asked Sep 27 at 11:08
RichardRichard
1515 bronze badges
asked Sep 27 at 11:08
RichardRichard
1515 bronze badges
asked Sep 27 at 11:08
RichardRichard
1515 bronze badges
1515 bronze badges
6
The difference here is that NI would also be joining an EU member, as opposed to becoming a newly independent country. If it were to join Norway, of course, it would be a different story.
– phoog
Sep 27 at 13:40
1
@phoog is right: this is not about a hypothetical independent NI (which would never be economically viable, but that's an independent story)
– smci
Sep 28 at 3:18
add a comment
|
6
The difference here is that NI would also be joining an EU member, as opposed to becoming a newly independent country. If it were to join Norway, of course, it would be a different story.
– phoog
Sep 27 at 13:40
1
@phoog is right: this is not about a hypothetical independent NI (which would never be economically viable, but that's an independent story)
– smci
Sep 28 at 3:18
6
6
The difference here is that NI would also be joining an EU member, as opposed to becoming a newly independent country. If it were to join Norway, of course, it would be a different story.
– phoog
Sep 27 at 13:40
The difference here is that NI would also be joining an EU member, as opposed to becoming a newly independent country. If it were to join Norway, of course, it would be a different story.
– phoog
Sep 27 at 13:40
1
1
@phoog is right: this is not about a hypothetical independent NI (which would never be economically viable, but that's an independent story)
– smci
Sep 28 at 3:18
@phoog is right: this is not about a hypothetical independent NI (which would never be economically viable, but that's an independent story)
– smci
Sep 28 at 3:18
add a comment
|
1 Answer
1
active
oldest
votes
The European Council agreed in 2017 (see page 4) that a united Ireland would be part of the EU:
The European Council acknowledges that the Good Friday Agreement
expressly provides for an agreed mechanism whereby a united Ireland
may be brought about through peaceful and democratic means; and, in
this regard, the European Council acknowledges that, in accordance
with international law, the entire territory of such a united
Ireland would thus be part of the European Union.
The key word is "such", referring back to the "agreed mechanism ... through peaceful and democratic means". Only if Ireland were united using this mechanism would the EU automatically accept the whole territory as a member. The mechanism in question is described in the Belfast (or "Good Friday") Agreement (page 4): the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland can direct that a referendum be held in Northern Ireland; if such a referendum indicates a majority in favour of unification, both the UK and Irish governments are bound by the agreement to give effect to unification.
This restriction also means that the EU does not see this declaration as setting a general precedent for members annexing other territories. This was apparently of concern to the French:
French lawyers were concerned. Could this declaration create a
dangerous precedent, since European Council declarations carry strong
legal weight?
... The excruciating care with which the text had been
drafted was cited to convince the French Ambassador and his lawyers.
... The word ‘such’ related back to the
‘agreed mechanism’ in the Good Friday Agreement. Thus, the wording
could not be applied to any other situation.
[French Ambassador] Sellal and the lawyers took the explanation to
President François Hollande. The French dropped their objections
immediately.
(For this quote and other details of the discussions leading up to this statement by the European Council, see chapter 14 of Tony Connelly
Brexit and Ireland: The Dangers, the Opportunities, and the Inside Story of the Irish Response.
Penguin, 2017. ISBN: 978-1-84488-428-5)
answered Sep 27 at 11:24
SenexSenex
3463 silver badges4 bronze badges
2
Thank you for your response. Interesting that there is a special provision in the Irish case. In the back of my mind I was wondering if Scotland would ever consider uniting with both Ireland's, but it appears that'd be an entirely new proposition wrt the EU.
– Richard
Sep 27 at 12:19
5
There is the German precedent as well, even if it is older than the current set of treaties.
– o.m.
Sep 27 at 13:23
2
@o.m. Indeed. I find it hard to imagine that if any European territory mutually agreed to be annexed by an existing EU member with no other change in that country's constitution that the EU would do anything other than accept the new territory.
– phoog
Sep 27 at 13:37
2
I didn't think you were disagreeing; I just wanted to clarify. The point about precedent is well taken. More generally, the EU doesn't want to make general statements like the one I made, because some future situation might fall under the general statement but contain some other condition that they hadn't thought about.
– phoog
Sep 27 at 16:44
3
I am moderately surprised that it was the French and not the Spanish objecting... I would've expected some discussion of Catalonia and (maybe) Gibraltar.
– Kevin
Sep 27 at 21:49
|
show 7 more comments
1 Answer
1
active
oldest
votes
1 Answer
1
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
The European Council agreed in 2017 (see page 4) that a united Ireland would be part of the EU:
The European Council acknowledges that the Good Friday Agreement
expressly provides for an agreed mechanism whereby a united Ireland
may be brought about through peaceful and democratic means; and, in
this regard, the European Council acknowledges that, in accordance
with international law, the entire territory of such a united
Ireland would thus be part of the European Union.
The key word is "such", referring back to the "agreed mechanism ... through peaceful and democratic means". Only if Ireland were united using this mechanism would the EU automatically accept the whole territory as a member. The mechanism in question is described in the Belfast (or "Good Friday") Agreement (page 4): the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland can direct that a referendum be held in Northern Ireland; if such a referendum indicates a majority in favour of unification, both the UK and Irish governments are bound by the agreement to give effect to unification.
This restriction also means that the EU does not see this declaration as setting a general precedent for members annexing other territories. This was apparently of concern to the French:
French lawyers were concerned. Could this declaration create a
dangerous precedent, since European Council declarations carry strong
legal weight?
... The excruciating care with which the text had been
drafted was cited to convince the French Ambassador and his lawyers.
... The word ‘such’ related back to the
‘agreed mechanism’ in the Good Friday Agreement. Thus, the wording
could not be applied to any other situation.
[French Ambassador] Sellal and the lawyers took the explanation to
President François Hollande. The French dropped their objections
immediately.
(For this quote and other details of the discussions leading up to this statement by the European Council, see chapter 14 of Tony Connelly
Brexit and Ireland: The Dangers, the Opportunities, and the Inside Story of the Irish Response.
Penguin, 2017. ISBN: 978-1-84488-428-5)
answered Sep 27 at 11:24
SenexSenex
3463 silver badges4 bronze badges
2
Thank you for your response. Interesting that there is a special provision in the Irish case. In the back of my mind I was wondering if Scotland would ever consider uniting with both Ireland's, but it appears that'd be an entirely new proposition wrt the EU.
– Richard
Sep 27 at 12:19
5
There is the German precedent as well, even if it is older than the current set of treaties.
– o.m.
Sep 27 at 13:23
2
@o.m. Indeed. I find it hard to imagine that if any European territory mutually agreed to be annexed by an existing EU member with no other change in that country's constitution that the EU would do anything other than accept the new territory.
– phoog
Sep 27 at 13:37
2
I didn't think you were disagreeing; I just wanted to clarify. The point about precedent is well taken. More generally, the EU doesn't want to make general statements like the one I made, because some future situation might fall under the general statement but contain some other condition that they hadn't thought about.
– phoog
Sep 27 at 16:44
3
I am moderately surprised that it was the French and not the Spanish objecting... I would've expected some discussion of Catalonia and (maybe) Gibraltar.
– Kevin
Sep 27 at 21:49
|
show 7 more comments
The European Council agreed in 2017 (see page 4) that a united Ireland would be part of the EU:
The European Council acknowledges that the Good Friday Agreement
expressly provides for an agreed mechanism whereby a united Ireland
may be brought about through peaceful and democratic means; and, in
this regard, the European Council acknowledges that, in accordance
with international law, the entire territory of such a united
Ireland would thus be part of the European Union.
The key word is "such", referring back to the "agreed mechanism ... through peaceful and democratic means". Only if Ireland were united using this mechanism would the EU automatically accept the whole territory as a member. The mechanism in question is described in the Belfast (or "Good Friday") Agreement (page 4): the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland can direct that a referendum be held in Northern Ireland; if such a referendum indicates a majority in favour of unification, both the UK and Irish governments are bound by the agreement to give effect to unification.
This restriction also means that the EU does not see this declaration as setting a general precedent for members annexing other territories. This was apparently of concern to the French:
French lawyers were concerned. Could this declaration create a
dangerous precedent, since European Council declarations carry strong
legal weight?
... The excruciating care with which the text had been
drafted was cited to convince the French Ambassador and his lawyers.
... The word ‘such’ related back to the
‘agreed mechanism’ in the Good Friday Agreement. Thus, the wording
could not be applied to any other situation.
[French Ambassador] Sellal and the lawyers took the explanation to
President François Hollande. The French dropped their objections
immediately.
(For this quote and other details of the discussions leading up to this statement by the European Council, see chapter 14 of Tony Connelly
Brexit and Ireland: The Dangers, the Opportunities, and the Inside Story of the Irish Response.
Penguin, 2017. ISBN: 978-1-84488-428-5)
answered Sep 27 at 11:24
SenexSenex
3463 silver badges4 bronze badges
2
Thank you for your response. Interesting that there is a special provision in the Irish case. In the back of my mind I was wondering if Scotland would ever consider uniting with both Ireland's, but it appears that'd be an entirely new proposition wrt the EU.
– Richard
Sep 27 at 12:19
5
There is the German precedent as well, even if it is older than the current set of treaties.
– o.m.
Sep 27 at 13:23
2
@o.m. Indeed. I find it hard to imagine that if any European territory mutually agreed to be annexed by an existing EU member with no other change in that country's constitution that the EU would do anything other than accept the new territory.
– phoog
Sep 27 at 13:37
2
I didn't think you were disagreeing; I just wanted to clarify. The point about precedent is well taken. More generally, the EU doesn't want to make general statements like the one I made, because some future situation might fall under the general statement but contain some other condition that they hadn't thought about.
– phoog
Sep 27 at 16:44
3
I am moderately surprised that it was the French and not the Spanish objecting... I would've expected some discussion of Catalonia and (maybe) Gibraltar.
– Kevin
Sep 27 at 21:49
|
show 7 more comments
The European Council agreed in 2017 (see page 4) that a united Ireland would be part of the EU:
The European Council acknowledges that the Good Friday Agreement
expressly provides for an agreed mechanism whereby a united Ireland
may be brought about through peaceful and democratic means; and, in
this regard, the European Council acknowledges that, in accordance
with international law, the entire territory of such a united
Ireland would thus be part of the European Union.
The key word is "such", referring back to the "agreed mechanism ... through peaceful and democratic means". Only if Ireland were united using this mechanism would the EU automatically accept the whole territory as a member. The mechanism in question is described in the Belfast (or "Good Friday") Agreement (page 4): the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland can direct that a referendum be held in Northern Ireland; if such a referendum indicates a majority in favour of unification, both the UK and Irish governments are bound by the agreement to give effect to unification.
This restriction also means that the EU does not see this declaration as setting a general precedent for members annexing other territories. This was apparently of concern to the French:
French lawyers were concerned. Could this declaration create a
dangerous precedent, since European Council declarations carry strong
legal weight?
... The excruciating care with which the text had been
drafted was cited to convince the French Ambassador and his lawyers.
... The word ‘such’ related back to the
‘agreed mechanism’ in the Good Friday Agreement. Thus, the wording
could not be applied to any other situation.
[French Ambassador] Sellal and the lawyers took the explanation to
President François Hollande. The French dropped their objections
immediately.
(For this quote and other details of the discussions leading up to this statement by the European Council, see chapter 14 of Tony Connelly
Brexit and Ireland: The Dangers, the Opportunities, and the Inside Story of the Irish Response.
Penguin, 2017. ISBN: 978-1-84488-428-5)
answered Sep 27 at 11:24
SenexSenex
3463 silver badges4 bronze badges
The European Council agreed in 2017 (see page 4) that a united Ireland would be part of the EU:
The European Council acknowledges that the Good Friday Agreement
expressly provides for an agreed mechanism whereby a united Ireland
may be brought about through peaceful and democratic means; and, in
this regard, the European Council acknowledges that, in accordance
with international law, the entire territory of such a united
Ireland would thus be part of the European Union.
The key word is "such", referring back to the "agreed mechanism ... through peaceful and democratic means". Only if Ireland were united using this mechanism would the EU automatically accept the whole territory as a member. The mechanism in question is described in the Belfast (or "Good Friday") Agreement (page 4): the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland can direct that a referendum be held in Northern Ireland; if such a referendum indicates a majority in favour of unification, both the UK and Irish governments are bound by the agreement to give effect to unification.
This restriction also means that the EU does not see this declaration as setting a general precedent for members annexing other territories. This was apparently of concern to the French:
French lawyers were concerned. Could this declaration create a
dangerous precedent, since European Council declarations carry strong
legal weight?
... The excruciating care with which the text had been
drafted was cited to convince the French Ambassador and his lawyers.
... The word ‘such’ related back to the
‘agreed mechanism’ in the Good Friday Agreement. Thus, the wording
could not be applied to any other situation.
[French Ambassador] Sellal and the lawyers took the explanation to
President François Hollande. The French dropped their objections
immediately.
(For this quote and other details of the discussions leading up to this statement by the European Council, see chapter 14 of Tony Connelly
Brexit and Ireland: The Dangers, the Opportunities, and the Inside Story of the Irish Response.
Penguin, 2017. ISBN: 978-1-84488-428-5)
answered Sep 27 at 11:24
SenexSenex
3463 silver badges4 bronze badges
edited Sep 27 at 15:06
answered Sep 27 at 11:24
SenexSenex
3463 silver badges4 bronze badges
answered Sep 27 at 11:24
SenexSenex
3463 silver badges4 bronze badges
answered Sep 27 at 11:24
SenexSenex
3463 silver badges4 bronze badges
3463 silver badges4 bronze badges
2
Thank you for your response. Interesting that there is a special provision in the Irish case. In the back of my mind I was wondering if Scotland would ever consider uniting with both Ireland's, but it appears that'd be an entirely new proposition wrt the EU.
– Richard
Sep 27 at 12:19
5
There is the German precedent as well, even if it is older than the current set of treaties.
– o.m.
Sep 27 at 13:23
2
@o.m. Indeed. I find it hard to imagine that if any European territory mutually agreed to be annexed by an existing EU member with no other change in that country's constitution that the EU would do anything other than accept the new territory.
– phoog
Sep 27 at 13:37
2
I didn't think you were disagreeing; I just wanted to clarify. The point about precedent is well taken. More generally, the EU doesn't want to make general statements like the one I made, because some future situation might fall under the general statement but contain some other condition that they hadn't thought about.
– phoog
Sep 27 at 16:44
3
I am moderately surprised that it was the French and not the Spanish objecting... I would've expected some discussion of Catalonia and (maybe) Gibraltar.
– Kevin
Sep 27 at 21:49
|
show 7 more comments
2
Thank you for your response. Interesting that there is a special provision in the Irish case. In the back of my mind I was wondering if Scotland would ever consider uniting with both Ireland's, but it appears that'd be an entirely new proposition wrt the EU.
– Richard
Sep 27 at 12:19
5
There is the German precedent as well, even if it is older than the current set of treaties.
– o.m.
Sep 27 at 13:23
2
@o.m. Indeed. I find it hard to imagine that if any European territory mutually agreed to be annexed by an existing EU member with no other change in that country's constitution that the EU would do anything other than accept the new territory.
– phoog
Sep 27 at 13:37
2
I didn't think you were disagreeing; I just wanted to clarify. The point about precedent is well taken. More generally, the EU doesn't want to make general statements like the one I made, because some future situation might fall under the general statement but contain some other condition that they hadn't thought about.
– phoog
Sep 27 at 16:44
3
I am moderately surprised that it was the French and not the Spanish objecting... I would've expected some discussion of Catalonia and (maybe) Gibraltar.
– Kevin
Sep 27 at 21:49
2
2
Thank you for your response. Interesting that there is a special provision in the Irish case. In the back of my mind I was wondering if Scotland would ever consider uniting with both Ireland's, but it appears that'd be an entirely new proposition wrt the EU.
– Richard
Sep 27 at 12:19
Thank you for your response. Interesting that there is a special provision in the Irish case. In the back of my mind I was wondering if Scotland would ever consider uniting with both Ireland's, but it appears that'd be an entirely new proposition wrt the EU.
– Richard
Sep 27 at 12:19
5
5
There is the German precedent as well, even if it is older than the current set of treaties.
– o.m.
Sep 27 at 13:23
There is the German precedent as well, even if it is older than the current set of treaties.
– o.m.
Sep 27 at 13:23
2
2
@o.m. Indeed. I find it hard to imagine that if any European territory mutually agreed to be annexed by an existing EU member with no other change in that country's constitution that the EU would do anything other than accept the new territory.
– phoog
Sep 27 at 13:37
@o.m. Indeed. I find it hard to imagine that if any European territory mutually agreed to be annexed by an existing EU member with no other change in that country's constitution that the EU would do anything other than accept the new territory.
– phoog
Sep 27 at 13:37
2
2
I didn't think you were disagreeing; I just wanted to clarify. The point about precedent is well taken. More generally, the EU doesn't want to make general statements like the one I made, because some future situation might fall under the general statement but contain some other condition that they hadn't thought about.
– phoog
Sep 27 at 16:44
I didn't think you were disagreeing; I just wanted to clarify. The point about precedent is well taken. More generally, the EU doesn't want to make general statements like the one I made, because some future situation might fall under the general statement but contain some other condition that they hadn't thought about.
– phoog
Sep 27 at 16:44
3
3
I am moderately surprised that it was the French and not the Spanish objecting... I would've expected some discussion of Catalonia and (maybe) Gibraltar.
– Kevin
Sep 27 at 21:49
I am moderately surprised that it was the French and not the Spanish objecting... I would've expected some discussion of Catalonia and (maybe) Gibraltar.
– Kevin
Sep 27 at 21:49
|
show 7 more comments
6
The difference here is that NI would also be joining an EU member, as opposed to becoming a newly independent country. If it were to join Norway, of course, it would be a different story.
– phoog
Sep 27 at 13:40
1
@phoog is right: this is not about a hypothetical independent NI (which would never be economically viable, but that's an independent story)
– smci
Sep 28 at 3:18