How could a medieval fortress manage large groups of migrants and travelers?How large can a medieval Empire conceivably get and still be considered a single political entity?How could a monarch rule in a vast, isolated, medieval cityHow do underground civilizations effectively manage waste sanitation?What would the government of a medieval city-state be and how many people would be running it?Convincing a large medieval city of an incoming catastropheHow could a medieval society catch a large number of birds in a short length of time?Could a medieval fantasy world sustain itself by occupying important trade hubs and taxing trade?
Bash to check if directory exist. If not create with an array
Why does Smaug have 4 legs in the 1st movie but only 2 legs in the 2nd?
What is the difference between diminished fifth and augmented fourth?
Slimy whey in store-bought yoghurt
Pi to the power y, for small y's
Possible executive assistant job scam
Bourbaki assembly brackets
Is it possible to write a short story in 500 words?
"Cобака на сене" - is this expression still in use or is it dated?
Is it acceptable to mark off or comment on someone's presentation based on their non-standard English accent?
Titanium seapost in steel seat tube, good idea?
A professor commented that my research is too simple as compared to my colleagues. What does that mean about my future prospects?
Does quickening a spell change the kind of action it grants?
Hands-on murderer
Why was Wouter Basson never charged with crimes against humanity for Project Coast?
My name causes an issue with booking!
Did medieval stores have names?
I'm being blamed for not responding to an email from a client
Meaning of "Nur so anbei."
Can "marriage" be used as a verb?
Could the Ancient Egyptian hieroglyphs have been deciphered without the Rosetta Stone with modern tech?
What is the role of Shutter Speed while using a Manual Flash?
Is it unsafe to remove one stud from a load bearing wall?
Is a vector space naturally isomorphic to its dual?
How could a medieval fortress manage large groups of migrants and travelers?
How large can a medieval Empire conceivably get and still be considered a single political entity?How could a monarch rule in a vast, isolated, medieval cityHow do underground civilizations effectively manage waste sanitation?What would the government of a medieval city-state be and how many people would be running it?Convincing a large medieval city of an incoming catastropheHow could a medieval society catch a large number of birds in a short length of time?Could a medieval fantasy world sustain itself by occupying important trade hubs and taxing trade?
.everyoneloves__top-leaderboard:empty,.everyoneloves__mid-leaderboard:empty,.everyoneloves__bot-mid-leaderboard:empty
margin-bottom:0;
.everyonelovesstackoverflowposition:absolute;height:1px;width:1px;opacity:0;top:0;left:0;pointer-events:none;
$begingroup$
The Red Keep was built thousands of years ago to defend against the invading hordes. The Red Keep itself is a fortress, the main wall of which blocks off the main pass through the mountains.
Over the years the threats of the hordes have diminished and migrants from their homelands have begun trying to get into the valley permanently instead of as raiders like their ancestors. Initially the lords of the keep fought off these migrants, but one ambitious lord saw easy money through processing these migrant groups and "employing" them as mercenary bands to defend the keep from enemies within the valley.
The Red Keep has been transformed from a simple keep into a large city that's filled with thousands of permanent residents and thousands more going to and from the keep into the valley or the horde lands.
How could the lords of the Red Keep properly process such large numbers of people?
Note: they do not have access to the printing press.
Technology is the Medieval High period
medieval government cities
edited Jul 16 at 23:15
Cyn says reinstate Monica
19.3k2 gold badges38 silver badges88 bronze badges
asked Jul 16 at 18:58
Celestial Dragon EmperorCelestial Dragon Emperor
5,4854 gold badges36 silver badges78 bronze badges
$endgroup$
|
show 9 more comments
$begingroup$
The Red Keep was built thousands of years ago to defend against the invading hordes. The Red Keep itself is a fortress, the main wall of which blocks off the main pass through the mountains.
Over the years the threats of the hordes have diminished and migrants from their homelands have begun trying to get into the valley permanently instead of as raiders like their ancestors. Initially the lords of the keep fought off these migrants, but one ambitious lord saw easy money through processing these migrant groups and "employing" them as mercenary bands to defend the keep from enemies within the valley.
The Red Keep has been transformed from a simple keep into a large city that's filled with thousands of permanent residents and thousands more going to and from the keep into the valley or the horde lands.
How could the lords of the Red Keep properly process such large numbers of people?
Note: they do not have access to the printing press.
Technology is the Medieval High period
medieval government cities
edited Jul 16 at 23:15
Cyn says reinstate Monica
19.3k2 gold badges38 silver badges88 bronze badges
asked Jul 16 at 18:58
Celestial Dragon EmperorCelestial Dragon Emperor
5,4854 gold badges36 silver badges78 bronze badges
$endgroup$
8
$begingroup$
"transformed from a simple keep into a large city" - traditionally, cities were built around the castles. Do you want the entire city fit inside the old castle walls?
$endgroup$
– Alexander
Jul 16 at 19:08
4
$begingroup$
Any sensible ruler would instantly behead the "clever" lord for treason, right after the "peaceful" migrants took over the keep and opened it for the horde, as blood is thicker than water. Putting this aside, what kind of "processing" do you wish to do exactly?
$endgroup$
– Lupus
Jul 16 at 19:23
10
$begingroup$
Old castles usually have a small footprint, there is no room for a city. You may convert army barracks and stables into housing, but the conditions would be squalid, and neither the lord, nor his retainers would like to live in a castle like that. You may want to have only the "processing center" in the castle, with the real city outside.
$endgroup$
– Alexander
Jul 16 at 19:27
2
$begingroup$
@Alexander I doubt the lord would even allow the processing center to exist inside the walls. During this period peasants were barely seen as more than slaves. Plus, these are foreign peasants, who would be tired and hungry, and unhappy due to that fact. No lord in his right mind would let crowds of them enter the walls. See The People's Crusade for a good example of this
$endgroup$
– Cygnus X-1
Jul 16 at 19:49
1
$begingroup$
@CygnusX-1 -- the Crusader attack on Blacharnae (part of Constantinople) is another example. A mostly peasant army showed up in Byzantine territory and, rather than cross to Asia Minor and going on to the Holy Land, took up raiding the locals. They tried to break down the gates of Constantinople, looted one of the palaces, and were eventually forced to cross the Bosporous and wait for the rest of the Crusading force.
$endgroup$
– Rob Crawford
Jul 17 at 19:40
|
show 9 more comments
$begingroup$
The Red Keep was built thousands of years ago to defend against the invading hordes. The Red Keep itself is a fortress, the main wall of which blocks off the main pass through the mountains.
Over the years the threats of the hordes have diminished and migrants from their homelands have begun trying to get into the valley permanently instead of as raiders like their ancestors. Initially the lords of the keep fought off these migrants, but one ambitious lord saw easy money through processing these migrant groups and "employing" them as mercenary bands to defend the keep from enemies within the valley.
The Red Keep has been transformed from a simple keep into a large city that's filled with thousands of permanent residents and thousands more going to and from the keep into the valley or the horde lands.
How could the lords of the Red Keep properly process such large numbers of people?
Note: they do not have access to the printing press.
Technology is the Medieval High period
medieval government cities
edited Jul 16 at 23:15
Cyn says reinstate Monica
19.3k2 gold badges38 silver badges88 bronze badges
asked Jul 16 at 18:58
Celestial Dragon EmperorCelestial Dragon Emperor
5,4854 gold badges36 silver badges78 bronze badges
$endgroup$
The Red Keep was built thousands of years ago to defend against the invading hordes. The Red Keep itself is a fortress, the main wall of which blocks off the main pass through the mountains.
Over the years the threats of the hordes have diminished and migrants from their homelands have begun trying to get into the valley permanently instead of as raiders like their ancestors. Initially the lords of the keep fought off these migrants, but one ambitious lord saw easy money through processing these migrant groups and "employing" them as mercenary bands to defend the keep from enemies within the valley.
The Red Keep has been transformed from a simple keep into a large city that's filled with thousands of permanent residents and thousands more going to and from the keep into the valley or the horde lands.
How could the lords of the Red Keep properly process such large numbers of people?
Note: they do not have access to the printing press.
Technology is the Medieval High period
medieval government cities
medieval government cities
edited Jul 16 at 23:15
Cyn says reinstate Monica
19.3k2 gold badges38 silver badges88 bronze badges
asked Jul 16 at 18:58
Celestial Dragon EmperorCelestial Dragon Emperor
5,4854 gold badges36 silver badges78 bronze badges
edited Jul 16 at 23:15
Cyn says reinstate Monica
19.3k2 gold badges38 silver badges88 bronze badges
asked Jul 16 at 18:58
Celestial Dragon EmperorCelestial Dragon Emperor
5,4854 gold badges36 silver badges78 bronze badges
edited Jul 16 at 23:15
Cyn says reinstate Monica
19.3k2 gold badges38 silver badges88 bronze badges
edited Jul 16 at 23:15
Cyn says reinstate Monica
19.3k2 gold badges38 silver badges88 bronze badges
edited Jul 16 at 23:15
Cyn says reinstate Monica
19.3k2 gold badges38 silver badges88 bronze badges
19.3k2 gold badges38 silver badges88 bronze badges
asked Jul 16 at 18:58
Celestial Dragon EmperorCelestial Dragon Emperor
5,4854 gold badges36 silver badges78 bronze badges
asked Jul 16 at 18:58
Celestial Dragon EmperorCelestial Dragon Emperor
5,4854 gold badges36 silver badges78 bronze badges
asked Jul 16 at 18:58
Celestial Dragon EmperorCelestial Dragon Emperor
5,4854 gold badges36 silver badges78 bronze badges
5,4854 gold badges36 silver badges78 bronze badges
8
$begingroup$
"transformed from a simple keep into a large city" - traditionally, cities were built around the castles. Do you want the entire city fit inside the old castle walls?
$endgroup$
– Alexander
Jul 16 at 19:08
4
$begingroup$
Any sensible ruler would instantly behead the "clever" lord for treason, right after the "peaceful" migrants took over the keep and opened it for the horde, as blood is thicker than water. Putting this aside, what kind of "processing" do you wish to do exactly?
$endgroup$
– Lupus
Jul 16 at 19:23
10
$begingroup$
Old castles usually have a small footprint, there is no room for a city. You may convert army barracks and stables into housing, but the conditions would be squalid, and neither the lord, nor his retainers would like to live in a castle like that. You may want to have only the "processing center" in the castle, with the real city outside.
$endgroup$
– Alexander
Jul 16 at 19:27
2
$begingroup$
@Alexander I doubt the lord would even allow the processing center to exist inside the walls. During this period peasants were barely seen as more than slaves. Plus, these are foreign peasants, who would be tired and hungry, and unhappy due to that fact. No lord in his right mind would let crowds of them enter the walls. See The People's Crusade for a good example of this
$endgroup$
– Cygnus X-1
Jul 16 at 19:49
1
$begingroup$
@CygnusX-1 -- the Crusader attack on Blacharnae (part of Constantinople) is another example. A mostly peasant army showed up in Byzantine territory and, rather than cross to Asia Minor and going on to the Holy Land, took up raiding the locals. They tried to break down the gates of Constantinople, looted one of the palaces, and were eventually forced to cross the Bosporous and wait for the rest of the Crusading force.
$endgroup$
– Rob Crawford
Jul 17 at 19:40
|
show 9 more comments
8
$begingroup$
"transformed from a simple keep into a large city" - traditionally, cities were built around the castles. Do you want the entire city fit inside the old castle walls?
$endgroup$
– Alexander
Jul 16 at 19:08
4
$begingroup$
Any sensible ruler would instantly behead the "clever" lord for treason, right after the "peaceful" migrants took over the keep and opened it for the horde, as blood is thicker than water. Putting this aside, what kind of "processing" do you wish to do exactly?
$endgroup$
– Lupus
Jul 16 at 19:23
10
$begingroup$
Old castles usually have a small footprint, there is no room for a city. You may convert army barracks and stables into housing, but the conditions would be squalid, and neither the lord, nor his retainers would like to live in a castle like that. You may want to have only the "processing center" in the castle, with the real city outside.
$endgroup$
– Alexander
Jul 16 at 19:27
2
$begingroup$
@Alexander I doubt the lord would even allow the processing center to exist inside the walls. During this period peasants were barely seen as more than slaves. Plus, these are foreign peasants, who would be tired and hungry, and unhappy due to that fact. No lord in his right mind would let crowds of them enter the walls. See The People's Crusade for a good example of this
$endgroup$
– Cygnus X-1
Jul 16 at 19:49
1
$begingroup$
@CygnusX-1 -- the Crusader attack on Blacharnae (part of Constantinople) is another example. A mostly peasant army showed up in Byzantine territory and, rather than cross to Asia Minor and going on to the Holy Land, took up raiding the locals. They tried to break down the gates of Constantinople, looted one of the palaces, and were eventually forced to cross the Bosporous and wait for the rest of the Crusading force.
$endgroup$
– Rob Crawford
Jul 17 at 19:40
8
8
$begingroup$
"transformed from a simple keep into a large city" - traditionally, cities were built around the castles. Do you want the entire city fit inside the old castle walls?
$endgroup$
– Alexander
Jul 16 at 19:08
$begingroup$
"transformed from a simple keep into a large city" - traditionally, cities were built around the castles. Do you want the entire city fit inside the old castle walls?
$endgroup$
– Alexander
Jul 16 at 19:08
4
4
$begingroup$
Any sensible ruler would instantly behead the "clever" lord for treason, right after the "peaceful" migrants took over the keep and opened it for the horde, as blood is thicker than water. Putting this aside, what kind of "processing" do you wish to do exactly?
$endgroup$
– Lupus
Jul 16 at 19:23
$begingroup$
Any sensible ruler would instantly behead the "clever" lord for treason, right after the "peaceful" migrants took over the keep and opened it for the horde, as blood is thicker than water. Putting this aside, what kind of "processing" do you wish to do exactly?
$endgroup$
– Lupus
Jul 16 at 19:23
10
10
$begingroup$
Old castles usually have a small footprint, there is no room for a city. You may convert army barracks and stables into housing, but the conditions would be squalid, and neither the lord, nor his retainers would like to live in a castle like that. You may want to have only the "processing center" in the castle, with the real city outside.
$endgroup$
– Alexander
Jul 16 at 19:27
$begingroup$
Old castles usually have a small footprint, there is no room for a city. You may convert army barracks and stables into housing, but the conditions would be squalid, and neither the lord, nor his retainers would like to live in a castle like that. You may want to have only the "processing center" in the castle, with the real city outside.
$endgroup$
– Alexander
Jul 16 at 19:27
2
2
$begingroup$
@Alexander I doubt the lord would even allow the processing center to exist inside the walls. During this period peasants were barely seen as more than slaves. Plus, these are foreign peasants, who would be tired and hungry, and unhappy due to that fact. No lord in his right mind would let crowds of them enter the walls. See The People's Crusade for a good example of this
$endgroup$
– Cygnus X-1
Jul 16 at 19:49
$begingroup$
@Alexander I doubt the lord would even allow the processing center to exist inside the walls. During this period peasants were barely seen as more than slaves. Plus, these are foreign peasants, who would be tired and hungry, and unhappy due to that fact. No lord in his right mind would let crowds of them enter the walls. See The People's Crusade for a good example of this
$endgroup$
– Cygnus X-1
Jul 16 at 19:49
1
1
$begingroup$
@CygnusX-1 -- the Crusader attack on Blacharnae (part of Constantinople) is another example. A mostly peasant army showed up in Byzantine territory and, rather than cross to Asia Minor and going on to the Holy Land, took up raiding the locals. They tried to break down the gates of Constantinople, looted one of the palaces, and were eventually forced to cross the Bosporous and wait for the rest of the Crusading force.
$endgroup$
– Rob Crawford
Jul 17 at 19:40
$begingroup$
@CygnusX-1 -- the Crusader attack on Blacharnae (part of Constantinople) is another example. A mostly peasant army showed up in Byzantine territory and, rather than cross to Asia Minor and going on to the Holy Land, took up raiding the locals. They tried to break down the gates of Constantinople, looted one of the palaces, and were eventually forced to cross the Bosporous and wait for the rest of the Crusading force.
$endgroup$
– Rob Crawford
Jul 17 at 19:40
|
show 9 more comments
6 Answers
6
active
oldest
votes
$begingroup$
The way it's always been done...
Multi-Level Marketing
Erm, I mean...
Appointment of Vassals
One man can't manage thousands upon thousands of mercenaries. The lords will delegate command over a smaller piece to subordinates in exchange for lawful operation inside the keep, possibly land, and permission to keep a small cut of all mercenary contracts (part of which they need to hand up the chain of command).
(modern) Rule of thumb dictates that a superior can effectively manage 7 +/- 2 subordinates. Let's push this up to 10, because 10 is close to the upper limit, and makes dealing with our organization easier.
(1) High Lord of the Red Keep
(10) Lower Lords of the Red Keep
(100) Knights of the Red Keep
(1000) Appointed Mercenary Captains of the Red Keep
(10000) Mercenaries
answered Jul 16 at 19:52
RangerRanger
13.5k4 gold badges58 silver badges107 bronze badges
$endgroup$
2
$begingroup$
"because 10 is close to the upper limit" And the higher-ups might prefer keeping fewer vassals paid/happy over having them working at optimal efficiency anyway.
$endgroup$
– GrandOpener
Jul 17 at 19:48
add a comment
|
$begingroup$
Thousands? Thousand of people during medieval period going to very very very length distance? Not suspicious at all. Not at all. Not like a king would like to know about it. Make some laws. Forbid or invite those people and spread them through whole kingdom.
So to answer the question. No, a medieval fortress (or keep or castle or anything that is strictly military) could not process thousands of people. Either the city around the castle is so big it can sustain those thousands of people (which turn the city into one of the largest cities in the kingdom) or it lead to total overrun and fights.
To give some historical perspective, during XVI century prosecuted Jews fled from Europe and settled in Poland (with an invitation form King, laws to their settlement, and so on). It was estimated that around 80% of world Jews population lived in Poland. The amount of immigrants was 10-24 thousands (depending on counting method). And this was organised on Kingdom level. Not on some keep captain whim.
answered Jul 17 at 12:15
SZCZERZO KŁYSZCZERZO KŁY
18.5k2 gold badges26 silver badges59 bronze badges
$endgroup$
add a comment
|
$begingroup$
Establish a march, or several of them, out beyond the Red Keep and put the migrants there. Unless the valley has recently had a plague or something, it probably has about as many people as are needed to run it properly. Adding more will just lead to lots of unemployed, homeless people wandering around causing trouble and undermining your social system. If the hordes from beyond the pass want to settle down, they're going to have to find somewhere else to do it. Then they'll have to defend it, although for the hordes that should be no problem.
As a bonus, the more land the lord of the Red Keep can bring under his (or his subordinate lords') control, the more powerful he will grow - especially if the king is weak or foolish or has weak or foolish or easily bribed emissaries that allow this sort of thing to go on. On the downside, if the king isn't weak or foolish he's going to put his foot down right quick about any unauthorized colonization for that exact reason. Larger empires in history like the Roman Empire or various incarnations of the Persian Empire tended to be rife with provincial governors and the like trying to build up personal power, sometimes becoming more powerful than the emperors they notionally served, with the attendant intrigues and civil wars one would expect.
A related idea you could steal from the Romans is auxiliary service. The hordes from beyond the pass aren't citizens now, but if they serve the marcher lord long enough, they and their families can become citizens and maybe even earn the right to move into the valley if that's still a worthwhile prize.
answered Jul 17 at 0:09
CadenceCadence
20.7k5 gold badges42 silver badges68 bronze badges
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
I'm thinking a almost Normandy kinda situation with one horde initially getting the march and now they feel obligated to protect it from other threats.
$endgroup$
– Celestial Dragon Emperor
Jul 17 at 0:35
add a comment
|
$begingroup$
An open immigration policy is quite workable as long as you respect certain principles
Ancient Rome is an excellent example of a civilisation that administered a very successful immigration program - in particular through its borders and processing (and also integrating) hundreds of thousands of immigrants over centuries.
They accomplished this by respecting certain principles:
- An acknowledgement that military might, nor impassable walls, are not solely economically feasible to prevent inevitable migration. Rome was a desirable empire to live: there is economic, social and indeed military advantage to letting them come
- They used natural terrain as much as possible to create 'borders' where possible, and only used walls (such as the Aurelian Walls) only where terrain is not adequate - this kept costs down.
- They split immigrants into smaller 'tribes' upon entry. These smaller groups were free to travel the empire, but the separation prevented large similar groups from being too culturally diverse
- They allocated underpopulated areas for the migrants to live, to ensure not too much load on their infrastructure
- A condition of entry was that a certain proportion of the immigrant group would be required to serve in the military and administrative areas, to both increase their army but also to ensure their army was equally diverse, and to reduce costs.
- All entrants must surrender their own weapons
- All entrants must renounce any previous allegiance
Until the Goths, this was a standard policy the Romans employed and provided untold riches and cultural benefits. Furthermore, the administrative and military cost to the policy was mitigated by the requirement of the immigrants themselves to serve as military and administrative personnel.
Although Rome was renown for its militaristic attributes, we need to remember that in reality they were very economically astute: keeping costs down in immigration and border control is a key driving force that enables the republic and empire to last the centuries it did.
answered Jul 17 at 9:39
floxflox
9,2118 silver badges30 bronze badges
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
Isn't that migration policy is part of the reason for their fall though?
$endgroup$
– Lupus
Jul 17 at 11:27
$begingroup$
@Lupus I'd put most of the blame for their fall on the instability and constant civil wars.
$endgroup$
– Celestial Dragon Emperor
Jul 17 at 12:35
$begingroup$
@CelestialDragonEmperor and what led to instability and civil wars? Their unprecedented unity and homogenity? Or the lack of? Naturally, it wasn't the sole reason for it, but still shouldn't be discarded as an important factor.
$endgroup$
– Lupus
Jul 17 at 13:48
$begingroup$
@Lupus that also lumped with the autonomy of the military from the rest of Rome.
$endgroup$
– Celestial Dragon Emperor
Jul 17 at 16:36
add a comment
|
$begingroup$
WALLS. Big beautiful walls.
With gates, written permits with wax seals.
What are they for? Restriction and control of certain areas. Restriction and monitoring of movements.
The Keep itself, surrounded by the highest, strongest walls will be a heavily restricted area. Only the officially recognized guards, officials will be allowed to enter. Otherwise, only those with written permits by the Lord himself. Customs may be employed that guests can't bring weapons, so on.
Town around the keep. It will have smaller walls, not so much for military defense but for better control of normal people and goods. It allows taxation, search for wanted criminals, ... A census can be kept of those with permanent residence and even visitors. A much simpler written permit allows entrance, written by numerous officials tasked to oversee it. Residence permits or privileged can avoid the visitor lanes and enter without undergoing search... or much lighter one.
Walls of the valley. A simple wood and mud wall, with patrolling guards are enough to curb movements. Those who must avoid official routes will find ways around it. For simple people, armed guards and fear of death are good enough deterrent.
Mini Frame Challenge:
Access points, the Gates of Valley, won't have traffic in the thousands every single day. Even if they have, they can wait to be processed. Few people were in that much of a rush, so they can't wait their turn... and those who truly couldn't, obtained special permits in advance (perishable traders, government officials, ...).
What they were most concerned in those times, were the movement of masses (they can be a threat), movement of goods or contraband (tax avoided: their money!!!) and a few high interest personage for various reasons (but simple portraits and descriptions of their likeness will be distributed in advance).
In case of above average number of travelers, additional guards and officials can be redirected to help with inspections. Otherwise, those without authority or power can wait their turn patiently. Their comfort and needs were rarely a priority or consideration.
The farming migrants will disperse into small villages around the valley. They have no reason to be crowded in one place (after their leader offered an oath of loyalty and servitude to the Lord and through him the Country and current Ruler). It is a logistic, hygene and many other nightmares at once. Chinese had big cities, western countries not so much until industrialization kicked in.
The merceneries will semi-integrated into the standing army, housed in barracks for better control and their leaders' family "gifted" with permament residence inside the Keep (maybe employed as special status semi servants) or in the Town, with much more restricted movement permits.
answered Jul 17 at 12:02
LupusLupus
2,2875 silver badges24 bronze badges
$endgroup$
add a comment
|
$begingroup$
From the lords perspective, you shouldn't bring them in. The best solution would be to allow them to build towns on the OUTSIDE of your walls. Then employ them to build a wall outside themselves. In this way you can extend your rings of protection. Invaders will now need to breach an additional wall and get through the living space of your mercenaries. Over time, trust and trade would be built on both sides of your original wall and the peoples would be come one. But the lords are left with more walled in territory, without unneeded risk.
answered Jul 17 at 14:54
Jammin4COJammin4CO
1,6274 silver badges12 bronze badges
$endgroup$
add a comment
|
Your Answer
StackExchange.ready(function()
var channelOptions =
tags: "".split(" "),
id: "579"
;
initTagRenderer("".split(" "), "".split(" "), channelOptions);
StackExchange.using("externalEditor", function()
// Have to fire editor after snippets, if snippets enabled
if (StackExchange.settings.snippets.snippetsEnabled)
StackExchange.using("snippets", function()
createEditor();
);
else
createEditor();
);
function createEditor()
StackExchange.prepareEditor(
heartbeatType: 'answer',
autoActivateHeartbeat: false,
convertImagesToLinks: false,
noModals: true,
showLowRepImageUploadWarning: true,
reputationToPostImages: null,
bindNavPrevention: true,
postfix: "",
imageUploader:
brandingHtml: "Powered by u003ca class="icon-imgur-white" href="https://imgur.com/"u003eu003c/au003e",
contentPolicyHtml: "User contributions licensed under u003ca href="https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/"u003ecc by-sa 4.0 with attribution requiredu003c/au003e u003ca href="https://stackoverflow.com/legal/content-policy"u003e(content policy)u003c/au003e",
allowUrls: true
,
noCode: true, onDemand: true,
discardSelector: ".discard-answer"
,immediatelyShowMarkdownHelp:true
);
);
Sign up or log in
StackExchange.ready(function ()
StackExchange.helpers.onClickDraftSave('#login-link');
);
Sign up using Google
Sign up using Facebook
Sign up using Email and Password
Post as a guest
Required, but never shown
StackExchange.ready(
function ()
StackExchange.openid.initPostLogin('.new-post-login', 'https%3a%2f%2fworldbuilding.stackexchange.com%2fquestions%2f151042%2fhow-could-a-medieval-fortress-manage-large-groups-of-migrants-and-travelers%23new-answer', 'question_page');
);
Post as a guest
Required, but never shown
6 Answers
6
active
oldest
votes
6 Answers
6
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
$begingroup$
The way it's always been done...
Multi-Level Marketing
Erm, I mean...
Appointment of Vassals
One man can't manage thousands upon thousands of mercenaries. The lords will delegate command over a smaller piece to subordinates in exchange for lawful operation inside the keep, possibly land, and permission to keep a small cut of all mercenary contracts (part of which they need to hand up the chain of command).
(modern) Rule of thumb dictates that a superior can effectively manage 7 +/- 2 subordinates. Let's push this up to 10, because 10 is close to the upper limit, and makes dealing with our organization easier.
(1) High Lord of the Red Keep
(10) Lower Lords of the Red Keep
(100) Knights of the Red Keep
(1000) Appointed Mercenary Captains of the Red Keep
(10000) Mercenaries
answered Jul 16 at 19:52
RangerRanger
13.5k4 gold badges58 silver badges107 bronze badges
$endgroup$
2
$begingroup$
"because 10 is close to the upper limit" And the higher-ups might prefer keeping fewer vassals paid/happy over having them working at optimal efficiency anyway.
$endgroup$
– GrandOpener
Jul 17 at 19:48
add a comment
|
$begingroup$
The way it's always been done...
Multi-Level Marketing
Erm, I mean...
Appointment of Vassals
One man can't manage thousands upon thousands of mercenaries. The lords will delegate command over a smaller piece to subordinates in exchange for lawful operation inside the keep, possibly land, and permission to keep a small cut of all mercenary contracts (part of which they need to hand up the chain of command).
(modern) Rule of thumb dictates that a superior can effectively manage 7 +/- 2 subordinates. Let's push this up to 10, because 10 is close to the upper limit, and makes dealing with our organization easier.
(1) High Lord of the Red Keep
(10) Lower Lords of the Red Keep
(100) Knights of the Red Keep
(1000) Appointed Mercenary Captains of the Red Keep
(10000) Mercenaries
answered Jul 16 at 19:52
RangerRanger
13.5k4 gold badges58 silver badges107 bronze badges
$endgroup$
2
$begingroup$
"because 10 is close to the upper limit" And the higher-ups might prefer keeping fewer vassals paid/happy over having them working at optimal efficiency anyway.
$endgroup$
– GrandOpener
Jul 17 at 19:48
add a comment
|
$begingroup$
The way it's always been done...
Multi-Level Marketing
Erm, I mean...
Appointment of Vassals
One man can't manage thousands upon thousands of mercenaries. The lords will delegate command over a smaller piece to subordinates in exchange for lawful operation inside the keep, possibly land, and permission to keep a small cut of all mercenary contracts (part of which they need to hand up the chain of command).
(modern) Rule of thumb dictates that a superior can effectively manage 7 +/- 2 subordinates. Let's push this up to 10, because 10 is close to the upper limit, and makes dealing with our organization easier.
(1) High Lord of the Red Keep
(10) Lower Lords of the Red Keep
(100) Knights of the Red Keep
(1000) Appointed Mercenary Captains of the Red Keep
(10000) Mercenaries
answered Jul 16 at 19:52
RangerRanger
13.5k4 gold badges58 silver badges107 bronze badges
$endgroup$
The way it's always been done...
Multi-Level Marketing
Erm, I mean...
Appointment of Vassals
One man can't manage thousands upon thousands of mercenaries. The lords will delegate command over a smaller piece to subordinates in exchange for lawful operation inside the keep, possibly land, and permission to keep a small cut of all mercenary contracts (part of which they need to hand up the chain of command).
(modern) Rule of thumb dictates that a superior can effectively manage 7 +/- 2 subordinates. Let's push this up to 10, because 10 is close to the upper limit, and makes dealing with our organization easier.
(1) High Lord of the Red Keep
(10) Lower Lords of the Red Keep
(100) Knights of the Red Keep
(1000) Appointed Mercenary Captains of the Red Keep
(10000) Mercenaries
answered Jul 16 at 19:52
RangerRanger
13.5k4 gold badges58 silver badges107 bronze badges
answered Jul 16 at 19:52
RangerRanger
13.5k4 gold badges58 silver badges107 bronze badges
answered Jul 16 at 19:52
RangerRanger
13.5k4 gold badges58 silver badges107 bronze badges
answered Jul 16 at 19:52
RangerRanger
13.5k4 gold badges58 silver badges107 bronze badges
13.5k4 gold badges58 silver badges107 bronze badges
2
$begingroup$
"because 10 is close to the upper limit" And the higher-ups might prefer keeping fewer vassals paid/happy over having them working at optimal efficiency anyway.
$endgroup$
– GrandOpener
Jul 17 at 19:48
add a comment
|
2
$begingroup$
"because 10 is close to the upper limit" And the higher-ups might prefer keeping fewer vassals paid/happy over having them working at optimal efficiency anyway.
$endgroup$
– GrandOpener
Jul 17 at 19:48
2
2
$begingroup$
"because 10 is close to the upper limit" And the higher-ups might prefer keeping fewer vassals paid/happy over having them working at optimal efficiency anyway.
$endgroup$
– GrandOpener
Jul 17 at 19:48
$begingroup$
"because 10 is close to the upper limit" And the higher-ups might prefer keeping fewer vassals paid/happy over having them working at optimal efficiency anyway.
$endgroup$
– GrandOpener
Jul 17 at 19:48
add a comment
|
$begingroup$
Thousands? Thousand of people during medieval period going to very very very length distance? Not suspicious at all. Not at all. Not like a king would like to know about it. Make some laws. Forbid or invite those people and spread them through whole kingdom.
So to answer the question. No, a medieval fortress (or keep or castle or anything that is strictly military) could not process thousands of people. Either the city around the castle is so big it can sustain those thousands of people (which turn the city into one of the largest cities in the kingdom) or it lead to total overrun and fights.
To give some historical perspective, during XVI century prosecuted Jews fled from Europe and settled in Poland (with an invitation form King, laws to their settlement, and so on). It was estimated that around 80% of world Jews population lived in Poland. The amount of immigrants was 10-24 thousands (depending on counting method). And this was organised on Kingdom level. Not on some keep captain whim.
answered Jul 17 at 12:15
SZCZERZO KŁYSZCZERZO KŁY
18.5k2 gold badges26 silver badges59 bronze badges
$endgroup$
add a comment
|
$begingroup$
Thousands? Thousand of people during medieval period going to very very very length distance? Not suspicious at all. Not at all. Not like a king would like to know about it. Make some laws. Forbid or invite those people and spread them through whole kingdom.
So to answer the question. No, a medieval fortress (or keep or castle or anything that is strictly military) could not process thousands of people. Either the city around the castle is so big it can sustain those thousands of people (which turn the city into one of the largest cities in the kingdom) or it lead to total overrun and fights.
To give some historical perspective, during XVI century prosecuted Jews fled from Europe and settled in Poland (with an invitation form King, laws to their settlement, and so on). It was estimated that around 80% of world Jews population lived in Poland. The amount of immigrants was 10-24 thousands (depending on counting method). And this was organised on Kingdom level. Not on some keep captain whim.
answered Jul 17 at 12:15
SZCZERZO KŁYSZCZERZO KŁY
18.5k2 gold badges26 silver badges59 bronze badges
$endgroup$
add a comment
|
$begingroup$
Thousands? Thousand of people during medieval period going to very very very length distance? Not suspicious at all. Not at all. Not like a king would like to know about it. Make some laws. Forbid or invite those people and spread them through whole kingdom.
So to answer the question. No, a medieval fortress (or keep or castle or anything that is strictly military) could not process thousands of people. Either the city around the castle is so big it can sustain those thousands of people (which turn the city into one of the largest cities in the kingdom) or it lead to total overrun and fights.
To give some historical perspective, during XVI century prosecuted Jews fled from Europe and settled in Poland (with an invitation form King, laws to their settlement, and so on). It was estimated that around 80% of world Jews population lived in Poland. The amount of immigrants was 10-24 thousands (depending on counting method). And this was organised on Kingdom level. Not on some keep captain whim.
answered Jul 17 at 12:15
SZCZERZO KŁYSZCZERZO KŁY
18.5k2 gold badges26 silver badges59 bronze badges
$endgroup$
Thousands? Thousand of people during medieval period going to very very very length distance? Not suspicious at all. Not at all. Not like a king would like to know about it. Make some laws. Forbid or invite those people and spread them through whole kingdom.
So to answer the question. No, a medieval fortress (or keep or castle or anything that is strictly military) could not process thousands of people. Either the city around the castle is so big it can sustain those thousands of people (which turn the city into one of the largest cities in the kingdom) or it lead to total overrun and fights.
To give some historical perspective, during XVI century prosecuted Jews fled from Europe and settled in Poland (with an invitation form King, laws to their settlement, and so on). It was estimated that around 80% of world Jews population lived in Poland. The amount of immigrants was 10-24 thousands (depending on counting method). And this was organised on Kingdom level. Not on some keep captain whim.
answered Jul 17 at 12:15
SZCZERZO KŁYSZCZERZO KŁY
18.5k2 gold badges26 silver badges59 bronze badges
answered Jul 17 at 12:15
SZCZERZO KŁYSZCZERZO KŁY
18.5k2 gold badges26 silver badges59 bronze badges
answered Jul 17 at 12:15
SZCZERZO KŁYSZCZERZO KŁY
18.5k2 gold badges26 silver badges59 bronze badges
answered Jul 17 at 12:15
SZCZERZO KŁYSZCZERZO KŁY
18.5k2 gold badges26 silver badges59 bronze badges
18.5k2 gold badges26 silver badges59 bronze badges
add a comment
|
add a comment
|
$begingroup$
Establish a march, or several of them, out beyond the Red Keep and put the migrants there. Unless the valley has recently had a plague or something, it probably has about as many people as are needed to run it properly. Adding more will just lead to lots of unemployed, homeless people wandering around causing trouble and undermining your social system. If the hordes from beyond the pass want to settle down, they're going to have to find somewhere else to do it. Then they'll have to defend it, although for the hordes that should be no problem.
As a bonus, the more land the lord of the Red Keep can bring under his (or his subordinate lords') control, the more powerful he will grow - especially if the king is weak or foolish or has weak or foolish or easily bribed emissaries that allow this sort of thing to go on. On the downside, if the king isn't weak or foolish he's going to put his foot down right quick about any unauthorized colonization for that exact reason. Larger empires in history like the Roman Empire or various incarnations of the Persian Empire tended to be rife with provincial governors and the like trying to build up personal power, sometimes becoming more powerful than the emperors they notionally served, with the attendant intrigues and civil wars one would expect.
A related idea you could steal from the Romans is auxiliary service. The hordes from beyond the pass aren't citizens now, but if they serve the marcher lord long enough, they and their families can become citizens and maybe even earn the right to move into the valley if that's still a worthwhile prize.
answered Jul 17 at 0:09
CadenceCadence
20.7k5 gold badges42 silver badges68 bronze badges
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
I'm thinking a almost Normandy kinda situation with one horde initially getting the march and now they feel obligated to protect it from other threats.
$endgroup$
– Celestial Dragon Emperor
Jul 17 at 0:35
add a comment
|
$begingroup$
Establish a march, or several of them, out beyond the Red Keep and put the migrants there. Unless the valley has recently had a plague or something, it probably has about as many people as are needed to run it properly. Adding more will just lead to lots of unemployed, homeless people wandering around causing trouble and undermining your social system. If the hordes from beyond the pass want to settle down, they're going to have to find somewhere else to do it. Then they'll have to defend it, although for the hordes that should be no problem.
As a bonus, the more land the lord of the Red Keep can bring under his (or his subordinate lords') control, the more powerful he will grow - especially if the king is weak or foolish or has weak or foolish or easily bribed emissaries that allow this sort of thing to go on. On the downside, if the king isn't weak or foolish he's going to put his foot down right quick about any unauthorized colonization for that exact reason. Larger empires in history like the Roman Empire or various incarnations of the Persian Empire tended to be rife with provincial governors and the like trying to build up personal power, sometimes becoming more powerful than the emperors they notionally served, with the attendant intrigues and civil wars one would expect.
A related idea you could steal from the Romans is auxiliary service. The hordes from beyond the pass aren't citizens now, but if they serve the marcher lord long enough, they and their families can become citizens and maybe even earn the right to move into the valley if that's still a worthwhile prize.
answered Jul 17 at 0:09
CadenceCadence
20.7k5 gold badges42 silver badges68 bronze badges
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
I'm thinking a almost Normandy kinda situation with one horde initially getting the march and now they feel obligated to protect it from other threats.
$endgroup$
– Celestial Dragon Emperor
Jul 17 at 0:35
add a comment
|
$begingroup$
Establish a march, or several of them, out beyond the Red Keep and put the migrants there. Unless the valley has recently had a plague or something, it probably has about as many people as are needed to run it properly. Adding more will just lead to lots of unemployed, homeless people wandering around causing trouble and undermining your social system. If the hordes from beyond the pass want to settle down, they're going to have to find somewhere else to do it. Then they'll have to defend it, although for the hordes that should be no problem.
As a bonus, the more land the lord of the Red Keep can bring under his (or his subordinate lords') control, the more powerful he will grow - especially if the king is weak or foolish or has weak or foolish or easily bribed emissaries that allow this sort of thing to go on. On the downside, if the king isn't weak or foolish he's going to put his foot down right quick about any unauthorized colonization for that exact reason. Larger empires in history like the Roman Empire or various incarnations of the Persian Empire tended to be rife with provincial governors and the like trying to build up personal power, sometimes becoming more powerful than the emperors they notionally served, with the attendant intrigues and civil wars one would expect.
A related idea you could steal from the Romans is auxiliary service. The hordes from beyond the pass aren't citizens now, but if they serve the marcher lord long enough, they and their families can become citizens and maybe even earn the right to move into the valley if that's still a worthwhile prize.
answered Jul 17 at 0:09
CadenceCadence
20.7k5 gold badges42 silver badges68 bronze badges
$endgroup$
Establish a march, or several of them, out beyond the Red Keep and put the migrants there. Unless the valley has recently had a plague or something, it probably has about as many people as are needed to run it properly. Adding more will just lead to lots of unemployed, homeless people wandering around causing trouble and undermining your social system. If the hordes from beyond the pass want to settle down, they're going to have to find somewhere else to do it. Then they'll have to defend it, although for the hordes that should be no problem.
As a bonus, the more land the lord of the Red Keep can bring under his (or his subordinate lords') control, the more powerful he will grow - especially if the king is weak or foolish or has weak or foolish or easily bribed emissaries that allow this sort of thing to go on. On the downside, if the king isn't weak or foolish he's going to put his foot down right quick about any unauthorized colonization for that exact reason. Larger empires in history like the Roman Empire or various incarnations of the Persian Empire tended to be rife with provincial governors and the like trying to build up personal power, sometimes becoming more powerful than the emperors they notionally served, with the attendant intrigues and civil wars one would expect.
A related idea you could steal from the Romans is auxiliary service. The hordes from beyond the pass aren't citizens now, but if they serve the marcher lord long enough, they and their families can become citizens and maybe even earn the right to move into the valley if that's still a worthwhile prize.
answered Jul 17 at 0:09
CadenceCadence
20.7k5 gold badges42 silver badges68 bronze badges
answered Jul 17 at 0:09
CadenceCadence
20.7k5 gold badges42 silver badges68 bronze badges
answered Jul 17 at 0:09
CadenceCadence
20.7k5 gold badges42 silver badges68 bronze badges
answered Jul 17 at 0:09
CadenceCadence
20.7k5 gold badges42 silver badges68 bronze badges
20.7k5 gold badges42 silver badges68 bronze badges
$begingroup$
I'm thinking a almost Normandy kinda situation with one horde initially getting the march and now they feel obligated to protect it from other threats.
$endgroup$
– Celestial Dragon Emperor
Jul 17 at 0:35
add a comment
|
$begingroup$
I'm thinking a almost Normandy kinda situation with one horde initially getting the march and now they feel obligated to protect it from other threats.
$endgroup$
– Celestial Dragon Emperor
Jul 17 at 0:35
$begingroup$
I'm thinking a almost Normandy kinda situation with one horde initially getting the march and now they feel obligated to protect it from other threats.
$endgroup$
– Celestial Dragon Emperor
Jul 17 at 0:35
$begingroup$
I'm thinking a almost Normandy kinda situation with one horde initially getting the march and now they feel obligated to protect it from other threats.
$endgroup$
– Celestial Dragon Emperor
Jul 17 at 0:35
add a comment
|
$begingroup$
An open immigration policy is quite workable as long as you respect certain principles
Ancient Rome is an excellent example of a civilisation that administered a very successful immigration program - in particular through its borders and processing (and also integrating) hundreds of thousands of immigrants over centuries.
They accomplished this by respecting certain principles:
- An acknowledgement that military might, nor impassable walls, are not solely economically feasible to prevent inevitable migration. Rome was a desirable empire to live: there is economic, social and indeed military advantage to letting them come
- They used natural terrain as much as possible to create 'borders' where possible, and only used walls (such as the Aurelian Walls) only where terrain is not adequate - this kept costs down.
- They split immigrants into smaller 'tribes' upon entry. These smaller groups were free to travel the empire, but the separation prevented large similar groups from being too culturally diverse
- They allocated underpopulated areas for the migrants to live, to ensure not too much load on their infrastructure
- A condition of entry was that a certain proportion of the immigrant group would be required to serve in the military and administrative areas, to both increase their army but also to ensure their army was equally diverse, and to reduce costs.
- All entrants must surrender their own weapons
- All entrants must renounce any previous allegiance
Until the Goths, this was a standard policy the Romans employed and provided untold riches and cultural benefits. Furthermore, the administrative and military cost to the policy was mitigated by the requirement of the immigrants themselves to serve as military and administrative personnel.
Although Rome was renown for its militaristic attributes, we need to remember that in reality they were very economically astute: keeping costs down in immigration and border control is a key driving force that enables the republic and empire to last the centuries it did.
answered Jul 17 at 9:39
floxflox
9,2118 silver badges30 bronze badges
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
Isn't that migration policy is part of the reason for their fall though?
$endgroup$
– Lupus
Jul 17 at 11:27
$begingroup$
@Lupus I'd put most of the blame for their fall on the instability and constant civil wars.
$endgroup$
– Celestial Dragon Emperor
Jul 17 at 12:35
$begingroup$
@CelestialDragonEmperor and what led to instability and civil wars? Their unprecedented unity and homogenity? Or the lack of? Naturally, it wasn't the sole reason for it, but still shouldn't be discarded as an important factor.
$endgroup$
– Lupus
Jul 17 at 13:48
$begingroup$
@Lupus that also lumped with the autonomy of the military from the rest of Rome.
$endgroup$
– Celestial Dragon Emperor
Jul 17 at 16:36
add a comment
|
$begingroup$
An open immigration policy is quite workable as long as you respect certain principles
Ancient Rome is an excellent example of a civilisation that administered a very successful immigration program - in particular through its borders and processing (and also integrating) hundreds of thousands of immigrants over centuries.
They accomplished this by respecting certain principles:
- An acknowledgement that military might, nor impassable walls, are not solely economically feasible to prevent inevitable migration. Rome was a desirable empire to live: there is economic, social and indeed military advantage to letting them come
- They used natural terrain as much as possible to create 'borders' where possible, and only used walls (such as the Aurelian Walls) only where terrain is not adequate - this kept costs down.
- They split immigrants into smaller 'tribes' upon entry. These smaller groups were free to travel the empire, but the separation prevented large similar groups from being too culturally diverse
- They allocated underpopulated areas for the migrants to live, to ensure not too much load on their infrastructure
- A condition of entry was that a certain proportion of the immigrant group would be required to serve in the military and administrative areas, to both increase their army but also to ensure their army was equally diverse, and to reduce costs.
- All entrants must surrender their own weapons
- All entrants must renounce any previous allegiance
Until the Goths, this was a standard policy the Romans employed and provided untold riches and cultural benefits. Furthermore, the administrative and military cost to the policy was mitigated by the requirement of the immigrants themselves to serve as military and administrative personnel.
Although Rome was renown for its militaristic attributes, we need to remember that in reality they were very economically astute: keeping costs down in immigration and border control is a key driving force that enables the republic and empire to last the centuries it did.
answered Jul 17 at 9:39
floxflox
9,2118 silver badges30 bronze badges
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
Isn't that migration policy is part of the reason for their fall though?
$endgroup$
– Lupus
Jul 17 at 11:27
$begingroup$
@Lupus I'd put most of the blame for their fall on the instability and constant civil wars.
$endgroup$
– Celestial Dragon Emperor
Jul 17 at 12:35
$begingroup$
@CelestialDragonEmperor and what led to instability and civil wars? Their unprecedented unity and homogenity? Or the lack of? Naturally, it wasn't the sole reason for it, but still shouldn't be discarded as an important factor.
$endgroup$
– Lupus
Jul 17 at 13:48
$begingroup$
@Lupus that also lumped with the autonomy of the military from the rest of Rome.
$endgroup$
– Celestial Dragon Emperor
Jul 17 at 16:36
add a comment
|
$begingroup$
An open immigration policy is quite workable as long as you respect certain principles
Ancient Rome is an excellent example of a civilisation that administered a very successful immigration program - in particular through its borders and processing (and also integrating) hundreds of thousands of immigrants over centuries.
They accomplished this by respecting certain principles:
- An acknowledgement that military might, nor impassable walls, are not solely economically feasible to prevent inevitable migration. Rome was a desirable empire to live: there is economic, social and indeed military advantage to letting them come
- They used natural terrain as much as possible to create 'borders' where possible, and only used walls (such as the Aurelian Walls) only where terrain is not adequate - this kept costs down.
- They split immigrants into smaller 'tribes' upon entry. These smaller groups were free to travel the empire, but the separation prevented large similar groups from being too culturally diverse
- They allocated underpopulated areas for the migrants to live, to ensure not too much load on their infrastructure
- A condition of entry was that a certain proportion of the immigrant group would be required to serve in the military and administrative areas, to both increase their army but also to ensure their army was equally diverse, and to reduce costs.
- All entrants must surrender their own weapons
- All entrants must renounce any previous allegiance
Until the Goths, this was a standard policy the Romans employed and provided untold riches and cultural benefits. Furthermore, the administrative and military cost to the policy was mitigated by the requirement of the immigrants themselves to serve as military and administrative personnel.
Although Rome was renown for its militaristic attributes, we need to remember that in reality they were very economically astute: keeping costs down in immigration and border control is a key driving force that enables the republic and empire to last the centuries it did.
answered Jul 17 at 9:39
floxflox
9,2118 silver badges30 bronze badges
$endgroup$
An open immigration policy is quite workable as long as you respect certain principles
Ancient Rome is an excellent example of a civilisation that administered a very successful immigration program - in particular through its borders and processing (and also integrating) hundreds of thousands of immigrants over centuries.
They accomplished this by respecting certain principles:
- An acknowledgement that military might, nor impassable walls, are not solely economically feasible to prevent inevitable migration. Rome was a desirable empire to live: there is economic, social and indeed military advantage to letting them come
- They used natural terrain as much as possible to create 'borders' where possible, and only used walls (such as the Aurelian Walls) only where terrain is not adequate - this kept costs down.
- They split immigrants into smaller 'tribes' upon entry. These smaller groups were free to travel the empire, but the separation prevented large similar groups from being too culturally diverse
- They allocated underpopulated areas for the migrants to live, to ensure not too much load on their infrastructure
- A condition of entry was that a certain proportion of the immigrant group would be required to serve in the military and administrative areas, to both increase their army but also to ensure their army was equally diverse, and to reduce costs.
- All entrants must surrender their own weapons
- All entrants must renounce any previous allegiance
Until the Goths, this was a standard policy the Romans employed and provided untold riches and cultural benefits. Furthermore, the administrative and military cost to the policy was mitigated by the requirement of the immigrants themselves to serve as military and administrative personnel.
Although Rome was renown for its militaristic attributes, we need to remember that in reality they were very economically astute: keeping costs down in immigration and border control is a key driving force that enables the republic and empire to last the centuries it did.
answered Jul 17 at 9:39
floxflox
9,2118 silver badges30 bronze badges
answered Jul 17 at 9:39
floxflox
9,2118 silver badges30 bronze badges
answered Jul 17 at 9:39
floxflox
9,2118 silver badges30 bronze badges
answered Jul 17 at 9:39
floxflox
9,2118 silver badges30 bronze badges
9,2118 silver badges30 bronze badges
$begingroup$
Isn't that migration policy is part of the reason for their fall though?
$endgroup$
– Lupus
Jul 17 at 11:27
$begingroup$
@Lupus I'd put most of the blame for their fall on the instability and constant civil wars.
$endgroup$
– Celestial Dragon Emperor
Jul 17 at 12:35
$begingroup$
@CelestialDragonEmperor and what led to instability and civil wars? Their unprecedented unity and homogenity? Or the lack of? Naturally, it wasn't the sole reason for it, but still shouldn't be discarded as an important factor.
$endgroup$
– Lupus
Jul 17 at 13:48
$begingroup$
@Lupus that also lumped with the autonomy of the military from the rest of Rome.
$endgroup$
– Celestial Dragon Emperor
Jul 17 at 16:36
add a comment
|
$begingroup$
Isn't that migration policy is part of the reason for their fall though?
$endgroup$
– Lupus
Jul 17 at 11:27
$begingroup$
@Lupus I'd put most of the blame for their fall on the instability and constant civil wars.
$endgroup$
– Celestial Dragon Emperor
Jul 17 at 12:35
$begingroup$
@CelestialDragonEmperor and what led to instability and civil wars? Their unprecedented unity and homogenity? Or the lack of? Naturally, it wasn't the sole reason for it, but still shouldn't be discarded as an important factor.
$endgroup$
– Lupus
Jul 17 at 13:48
$begingroup$
@Lupus that also lumped with the autonomy of the military from the rest of Rome.
$endgroup$
– Celestial Dragon Emperor
Jul 17 at 16:36
$begingroup$
Isn't that migration policy is part of the reason for their fall though?
$endgroup$
– Lupus
Jul 17 at 11:27
$begingroup$
Isn't that migration policy is part of the reason for their fall though?
$endgroup$
– Lupus
Jul 17 at 11:27
$begingroup$
@Lupus I'd put most of the blame for their fall on the instability and constant civil wars.
$endgroup$
– Celestial Dragon Emperor
Jul 17 at 12:35
$begingroup$
@Lupus I'd put most of the blame for their fall on the instability and constant civil wars.
$endgroup$
– Celestial Dragon Emperor
Jul 17 at 12:35
$begingroup$
@CelestialDragonEmperor and what led to instability and civil wars? Their unprecedented unity and homogenity? Or the lack of? Naturally, it wasn't the sole reason for it, but still shouldn't be discarded as an important factor.
$endgroup$
– Lupus
Jul 17 at 13:48
$begingroup$
@CelestialDragonEmperor and what led to instability and civil wars? Their unprecedented unity and homogenity? Or the lack of? Naturally, it wasn't the sole reason for it, but still shouldn't be discarded as an important factor.
$endgroup$
– Lupus
Jul 17 at 13:48
$begingroup$
@Lupus that also lumped with the autonomy of the military from the rest of Rome.
$endgroup$
– Celestial Dragon Emperor
Jul 17 at 16:36
$begingroup$
@Lupus that also lumped with the autonomy of the military from the rest of Rome.
$endgroup$
– Celestial Dragon Emperor
Jul 17 at 16:36
add a comment
|
$begingroup$
WALLS. Big beautiful walls.
With gates, written permits with wax seals.
What are they for? Restriction and control of certain areas. Restriction and monitoring of movements.
The Keep itself, surrounded by the highest, strongest walls will be a heavily restricted area. Only the officially recognized guards, officials will be allowed to enter. Otherwise, only those with written permits by the Lord himself. Customs may be employed that guests can't bring weapons, so on.
Town around the keep. It will have smaller walls, not so much for military defense but for better control of normal people and goods. It allows taxation, search for wanted criminals, ... A census can be kept of those with permanent residence and even visitors. A much simpler written permit allows entrance, written by numerous officials tasked to oversee it. Residence permits or privileged can avoid the visitor lanes and enter without undergoing search... or much lighter one.
Walls of the valley. A simple wood and mud wall, with patrolling guards are enough to curb movements. Those who must avoid official routes will find ways around it. For simple people, armed guards and fear of death are good enough deterrent.
Mini Frame Challenge:
Access points, the Gates of Valley, won't have traffic in the thousands every single day. Even if they have, they can wait to be processed. Few people were in that much of a rush, so they can't wait their turn... and those who truly couldn't, obtained special permits in advance (perishable traders, government officials, ...).
What they were most concerned in those times, were the movement of masses (they can be a threat), movement of goods or contraband (tax avoided: their money!!!) and a few high interest personage for various reasons (but simple portraits and descriptions of their likeness will be distributed in advance).
In case of above average number of travelers, additional guards and officials can be redirected to help with inspections. Otherwise, those without authority or power can wait their turn patiently. Their comfort and needs were rarely a priority or consideration.
The farming migrants will disperse into small villages around the valley. They have no reason to be crowded in one place (after their leader offered an oath of loyalty and servitude to the Lord and through him the Country and current Ruler). It is a logistic, hygene and many other nightmares at once. Chinese had big cities, western countries not so much until industrialization kicked in.
The merceneries will semi-integrated into the standing army, housed in barracks for better control and their leaders' family "gifted" with permament residence inside the Keep (maybe employed as special status semi servants) or in the Town, with much more restricted movement permits.
answered Jul 17 at 12:02
LupusLupus
2,2875 silver badges24 bronze badges
$endgroup$
add a comment
|
$begingroup$
WALLS. Big beautiful walls.
With gates, written permits with wax seals.
What are they for? Restriction and control of certain areas. Restriction and monitoring of movements.
The Keep itself, surrounded by the highest, strongest walls will be a heavily restricted area. Only the officially recognized guards, officials will be allowed to enter. Otherwise, only those with written permits by the Lord himself. Customs may be employed that guests can't bring weapons, so on.
Town around the keep. It will have smaller walls, not so much for military defense but for better control of normal people and goods. It allows taxation, search for wanted criminals, ... A census can be kept of those with permanent residence and even visitors. A much simpler written permit allows entrance, written by numerous officials tasked to oversee it. Residence permits or privileged can avoid the visitor lanes and enter without undergoing search... or much lighter one.
Walls of the valley. A simple wood and mud wall, with patrolling guards are enough to curb movements. Those who must avoid official routes will find ways around it. For simple people, armed guards and fear of death are good enough deterrent.
Mini Frame Challenge:
Access points, the Gates of Valley, won't have traffic in the thousands every single day. Even if they have, they can wait to be processed. Few people were in that much of a rush, so they can't wait their turn... and those who truly couldn't, obtained special permits in advance (perishable traders, government officials, ...).
What they were most concerned in those times, were the movement of masses (they can be a threat), movement of goods or contraband (tax avoided: their money!!!) and a few high interest personage for various reasons (but simple portraits and descriptions of their likeness will be distributed in advance).
In case of above average number of travelers, additional guards and officials can be redirected to help with inspections. Otherwise, those without authority or power can wait their turn patiently. Their comfort and needs were rarely a priority or consideration.
The farming migrants will disperse into small villages around the valley. They have no reason to be crowded in one place (after their leader offered an oath of loyalty and servitude to the Lord and through him the Country and current Ruler). It is a logistic, hygene and many other nightmares at once. Chinese had big cities, western countries not so much until industrialization kicked in.
The merceneries will semi-integrated into the standing army, housed in barracks for better control and their leaders' family "gifted" with permament residence inside the Keep (maybe employed as special status semi servants) or in the Town, with much more restricted movement permits.
answered Jul 17 at 12:02
LupusLupus
2,2875 silver badges24 bronze badges
$endgroup$
add a comment
|
$begingroup$
WALLS. Big beautiful walls.
With gates, written permits with wax seals.
What are they for? Restriction and control of certain areas. Restriction and monitoring of movements.
The Keep itself, surrounded by the highest, strongest walls will be a heavily restricted area. Only the officially recognized guards, officials will be allowed to enter. Otherwise, only those with written permits by the Lord himself. Customs may be employed that guests can't bring weapons, so on.
Town around the keep. It will have smaller walls, not so much for military defense but for better control of normal people and goods. It allows taxation, search for wanted criminals, ... A census can be kept of those with permanent residence and even visitors. A much simpler written permit allows entrance, written by numerous officials tasked to oversee it. Residence permits or privileged can avoid the visitor lanes and enter without undergoing search... or much lighter one.
Walls of the valley. A simple wood and mud wall, with patrolling guards are enough to curb movements. Those who must avoid official routes will find ways around it. For simple people, armed guards and fear of death are good enough deterrent.
Mini Frame Challenge:
Access points, the Gates of Valley, won't have traffic in the thousands every single day. Even if they have, they can wait to be processed. Few people were in that much of a rush, so they can't wait their turn... and those who truly couldn't, obtained special permits in advance (perishable traders, government officials, ...).
What they were most concerned in those times, were the movement of masses (they can be a threat), movement of goods or contraband (tax avoided: their money!!!) and a few high interest personage for various reasons (but simple portraits and descriptions of their likeness will be distributed in advance).
In case of above average number of travelers, additional guards and officials can be redirected to help with inspections. Otherwise, those without authority or power can wait their turn patiently. Their comfort and needs were rarely a priority or consideration.
The farming migrants will disperse into small villages around the valley. They have no reason to be crowded in one place (after their leader offered an oath of loyalty and servitude to the Lord and through him the Country and current Ruler). It is a logistic, hygene and many other nightmares at once. Chinese had big cities, western countries not so much until industrialization kicked in.
The merceneries will semi-integrated into the standing army, housed in barracks for better control and their leaders' family "gifted" with permament residence inside the Keep (maybe employed as special status semi servants) or in the Town, with much more restricted movement permits.
answered Jul 17 at 12:02
LupusLupus
2,2875 silver badges24 bronze badges
$endgroup$
WALLS. Big beautiful walls.
With gates, written permits with wax seals.
What are they for? Restriction and control of certain areas. Restriction and monitoring of movements.
The Keep itself, surrounded by the highest, strongest walls will be a heavily restricted area. Only the officially recognized guards, officials will be allowed to enter. Otherwise, only those with written permits by the Lord himself. Customs may be employed that guests can't bring weapons, so on.
Town around the keep. It will have smaller walls, not so much for military defense but for better control of normal people and goods. It allows taxation, search for wanted criminals, ... A census can be kept of those with permanent residence and even visitors. A much simpler written permit allows entrance, written by numerous officials tasked to oversee it. Residence permits or privileged can avoid the visitor lanes and enter without undergoing search... or much lighter one.
Walls of the valley. A simple wood and mud wall, with patrolling guards are enough to curb movements. Those who must avoid official routes will find ways around it. For simple people, armed guards and fear of death are good enough deterrent.
Mini Frame Challenge:
Access points, the Gates of Valley, won't have traffic in the thousands every single day. Even if they have, they can wait to be processed. Few people were in that much of a rush, so they can't wait their turn... and those who truly couldn't, obtained special permits in advance (perishable traders, government officials, ...).
What they were most concerned in those times, were the movement of masses (they can be a threat), movement of goods or contraband (tax avoided: their money!!!) and a few high interest personage for various reasons (but simple portraits and descriptions of their likeness will be distributed in advance).
In case of above average number of travelers, additional guards and officials can be redirected to help with inspections. Otherwise, those without authority or power can wait their turn patiently. Their comfort and needs were rarely a priority or consideration.
The farming migrants will disperse into small villages around the valley. They have no reason to be crowded in one place (after their leader offered an oath of loyalty and servitude to the Lord and through him the Country and current Ruler). It is a logistic, hygene and many other nightmares at once. Chinese had big cities, western countries not so much until industrialization kicked in.
The merceneries will semi-integrated into the standing army, housed in barracks for better control and their leaders' family "gifted" with permament residence inside the Keep (maybe employed as special status semi servants) or in the Town, with much more restricted movement permits.
answered Jul 17 at 12:02
LupusLupus
2,2875 silver badges24 bronze badges
edited Jul 17 at 12:11
answered Jul 17 at 12:02
LupusLupus
2,2875 silver badges24 bronze badges
answered Jul 17 at 12:02
LupusLupus
2,2875 silver badges24 bronze badges
answered Jul 17 at 12:02
LupusLupus
2,2875 silver badges24 bronze badges
2,2875 silver badges24 bronze badges
add a comment
|
add a comment
|
$begingroup$
From the lords perspective, you shouldn't bring them in. The best solution would be to allow them to build towns on the OUTSIDE of your walls. Then employ them to build a wall outside themselves. In this way you can extend your rings of protection. Invaders will now need to breach an additional wall and get through the living space of your mercenaries. Over time, trust and trade would be built on both sides of your original wall and the peoples would be come one. But the lords are left with more walled in territory, without unneeded risk.
answered Jul 17 at 14:54
Jammin4COJammin4CO
1,6274 silver badges12 bronze badges
$endgroup$
add a comment
|
$begingroup$
From the lords perspective, you shouldn't bring them in. The best solution would be to allow them to build towns on the OUTSIDE of your walls. Then employ them to build a wall outside themselves. In this way you can extend your rings of protection. Invaders will now need to breach an additional wall and get through the living space of your mercenaries. Over time, trust and trade would be built on both sides of your original wall and the peoples would be come one. But the lords are left with more walled in territory, without unneeded risk.
answered Jul 17 at 14:54
Jammin4COJammin4CO
1,6274 silver badges12 bronze badges
$endgroup$
add a comment
|
$begingroup$
From the lords perspective, you shouldn't bring them in. The best solution would be to allow them to build towns on the OUTSIDE of your walls. Then employ them to build a wall outside themselves. In this way you can extend your rings of protection. Invaders will now need to breach an additional wall and get through the living space of your mercenaries. Over time, trust and trade would be built on both sides of your original wall and the peoples would be come one. But the lords are left with more walled in territory, without unneeded risk.
answered Jul 17 at 14:54
Jammin4COJammin4CO
1,6274 silver badges12 bronze badges
$endgroup$
From the lords perspective, you shouldn't bring them in. The best solution would be to allow them to build towns on the OUTSIDE of your walls. Then employ them to build a wall outside themselves. In this way you can extend your rings of protection. Invaders will now need to breach an additional wall and get through the living space of your mercenaries. Over time, trust and trade would be built on both sides of your original wall and the peoples would be come one. But the lords are left with more walled in territory, without unneeded risk.
answered Jul 17 at 14:54
Jammin4COJammin4CO
1,6274 silver badges12 bronze badges
answered Jul 17 at 14:54
Jammin4COJammin4CO
1,6274 silver badges12 bronze badges
answered Jul 17 at 14:54
Jammin4COJammin4CO
1,6274 silver badges12 bronze badges
answered Jul 17 at 14:54
Jammin4COJammin4CO
1,6274 silver badges12 bronze badges
1,6274 silver badges12 bronze badges
add a comment
|
add a comment
|
Thanks for contributing an answer to Worldbuilding Stack Exchange!
- Please be sure to answer the question. Provide details and share your research!
But avoid …
- Asking for help, clarification, or responding to other answers.
- Making statements based on opinion; back them up with references or personal experience.
Use MathJax to format equations. MathJax reference.
To learn more, see our tips on writing great answers.
Sign up or log in
StackExchange.ready(function ()
StackExchange.helpers.onClickDraftSave('#login-link');
);
Sign up using Google
Sign up using Facebook
Sign up using Email and Password
Post as a guest
Required, but never shown
StackExchange.ready(
function ()
StackExchange.openid.initPostLogin('.new-post-login', 'https%3a%2f%2fworldbuilding.stackexchange.com%2fquestions%2f151042%2fhow-could-a-medieval-fortress-manage-large-groups-of-migrants-and-travelers%23new-answer', 'question_page');
);
Post as a guest
Required, but never shown
Sign up or log in
StackExchange.ready(function ()
StackExchange.helpers.onClickDraftSave('#login-link');
);
Sign up using Google
Sign up using Facebook
Sign up using Email and Password
Post as a guest
Required, but never shown
Sign up or log in
StackExchange.ready(function ()
StackExchange.helpers.onClickDraftSave('#login-link');
);
Sign up using Google
Sign up using Facebook
Sign up using Email and Password
Post as a guest
Required, but never shown
Sign up or log in
StackExchange.ready(function ()
StackExchange.helpers.onClickDraftSave('#login-link');
);
Sign up using Google
Sign up using Facebook
Sign up using Email and Password
Sign up using Google
Sign up using Facebook
Sign up using Email and Password
Post as a guest
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown
8
$begingroup$
"transformed from a simple keep into a large city" - traditionally, cities were built around the castles. Do you want the entire city fit inside the old castle walls?
$endgroup$
– Alexander
Jul 16 at 19:08
4
$begingroup$
Any sensible ruler would instantly behead the "clever" lord for treason, right after the "peaceful" migrants took over the keep and opened it for the horde, as blood is thicker than water. Putting this aside, what kind of "processing" do you wish to do exactly?
$endgroup$
– Lupus
Jul 16 at 19:23
10
$begingroup$
Old castles usually have a small footprint, there is no room for a city. You may convert army barracks and stables into housing, but the conditions would be squalid, and neither the lord, nor his retainers would like to live in a castle like that. You may want to have only the "processing center" in the castle, with the real city outside.
$endgroup$
– Alexander
Jul 16 at 19:27
2
$begingroup$
@Alexander I doubt the lord would even allow the processing center to exist inside the walls. During this period peasants were barely seen as more than slaves. Plus, these are foreign peasants, who would be tired and hungry, and unhappy due to that fact. No lord in his right mind would let crowds of them enter the walls. See The People's Crusade for a good example of this
$endgroup$
– Cygnus X-1
Jul 16 at 19:49
1
$begingroup$
@CygnusX-1 -- the Crusader attack on Blacharnae (part of Constantinople) is another example. A mostly peasant army showed up in Byzantine territory and, rather than cross to Asia Minor and going on to the Holy Land, took up raiding the locals. They tried to break down the gates of Constantinople, looted one of the palaces, and were eventually forced to cross the Bosporous and wait for the rest of the Crusading force.
$endgroup$
– Rob Crawford
Jul 17 at 19:40