Why is Kirchhoff's voltage law true in a DC circuit?Voltmeter forming a closed circuitWhy is the voltage of a battery equal to the emf?Is it safe to apply Kirchhoff's voltage law to a closed loop containing an inductance with unsteady current?Kirchhoff's second law intuitionHow can a battery offer resistance and act as a voltage provider?How can the voltage in a circuit possibly be constant for different resistances?Can Kirchhoff's Voltage Law be applied here?Kirchhoff's Voltage Law in a General Electromagnetic FieldUnderstanding Kirchhoff's Loop Law

How can I reflect a StreamPlot object?

Is it possible to protect saved games on Nintendo Switch from being played by other users?

Does the amount owed listed in my account on irs.gov include both federal and state taxes owed?

Large products with glass doors

Triangular domino tiling of an almost regular hexagon

Triangle puzzle

Is a geodesic in the 4d spacetime still a geodesic after projection onto the 3d space?

CEO says not to expect pay increases unless you do something really exceptional. Is this counter-productive?

Were there ever 12-, 24-, 48-, etc bit processors?

Substitute Unprintable ASCII Characters

Prevent function taking const std::string& from accepting 0

Authenticate users based on both user role, and requested operation

How to fight an army of skeletons?

What instructions should I give to an untrained passenger for Hand propping Cessna 172N as a pilot?

Last char on the line is being "left out" in many situations

Is it okay to not use the spare battery?

How can you determine the hostname associated with an IP on the network?

I noticed an error in a graded exam during office hours. Should I give the student the lower grade?

Does Airplane Mode allow GPS location to pass through?

Hough transform algorithm - Idiomatic c++

Physical interpretation of gamma matrices

Is there any reason as to why the schematic symbol of comparators is almost equivalent to that of op amps?

Novel about alien species made of gas rings?

If I fill a field through a dropdown menu in QGIS, will the content still be there in after importing the shapefile into a different GIS programme?



Why is Kirchhoff's voltage law true in a DC circuit?


Voltmeter forming a closed circuitWhy is the voltage of a battery equal to the emf?Is it safe to apply Kirchhoff's voltage law to a closed loop containing an inductance with unsteady current?Kirchhoff's second law intuitionHow can a battery offer resistance and act as a voltage provider?How can the voltage in a circuit possibly be constant for different resistances?Can Kirchhoff's Voltage Law be applied here?Kirchhoff's Voltage Law in a General Electromagnetic FieldUnderstanding Kirchhoff's Loop Law






.everyoneloves__top-leaderboard:empty,.everyoneloves__mid-leaderboard:empty,.everyoneloves__bot-mid-leaderboard:empty
margin-bottom:0;









5















$begingroup$


If we consider a single electron going around a closed loop, with a battery giving an EMF of $6 mathrm V$, why does the electron have to lose the energy in the loop?



If the circuit had zero resistance, wouldn't the electron just gain more and more energy as it loops around the circuit again and again, thus breaking Kirchhoff's voltage law and failing to conserve of energy, since the chemical potential of the battery gives the energy?










share|cite|improve this question











$endgroup$










  • 5




    $begingroup$
    Where does the Kirchhoff's voltage law say that electrons have to lose energy?
    $endgroup$
    – Dmitry Grigoryev
    Sep 12 at 7:50






  • 2




    $begingroup$
    Why do you say that the electron would GAIN energy as it goes around the loop?
    $endgroup$
    – Mike Brockington
    Sep 12 at 12:49

















5















$begingroup$


If we consider a single electron going around a closed loop, with a battery giving an EMF of $6 mathrm V$, why does the electron have to lose the energy in the loop?



If the circuit had zero resistance, wouldn't the electron just gain more and more energy as it loops around the circuit again and again, thus breaking Kirchhoff's voltage law and failing to conserve of energy, since the chemical potential of the battery gives the energy?










share|cite|improve this question











$endgroup$










  • 5




    $begingroup$
    Where does the Kirchhoff's voltage law say that electrons have to lose energy?
    $endgroup$
    – Dmitry Grigoryev
    Sep 12 at 7:50






  • 2




    $begingroup$
    Why do you say that the electron would GAIN energy as it goes around the loop?
    $endgroup$
    – Mike Brockington
    Sep 12 at 12:49













5













5









5


1



$begingroup$


If we consider a single electron going around a closed loop, with a battery giving an EMF of $6 mathrm V$, why does the electron have to lose the energy in the loop?



If the circuit had zero resistance, wouldn't the electron just gain more and more energy as it loops around the circuit again and again, thus breaking Kirchhoff's voltage law and failing to conserve of energy, since the chemical potential of the battery gives the energy?










share|cite|improve this question











$endgroup$




If we consider a single electron going around a closed loop, with a battery giving an EMF of $6 mathrm V$, why does the electron have to lose the energy in the loop?



If the circuit had zero resistance, wouldn't the electron just gain more and more energy as it loops around the circuit again and again, thus breaking Kirchhoff's voltage law and failing to conserve of energy, since the chemical potential of the battery gives the energy?







electrostatics electric-circuits electrical-resistance






share|cite|improve this question















share|cite|improve this question













share|cite|improve this question




share|cite|improve this question








edited Sep 12 at 7:18









Massimo Ortolano

2,6121 gold badge8 silver badges19 bronze badges




2,6121 gold badge8 silver badges19 bronze badges










asked Sep 11 at 13:41









JohnJohn

672 bronze badges




672 bronze badges










  • 5




    $begingroup$
    Where does the Kirchhoff's voltage law say that electrons have to lose energy?
    $endgroup$
    – Dmitry Grigoryev
    Sep 12 at 7:50






  • 2




    $begingroup$
    Why do you say that the electron would GAIN energy as it goes around the loop?
    $endgroup$
    – Mike Brockington
    Sep 12 at 12:49












  • 5




    $begingroup$
    Where does the Kirchhoff's voltage law say that electrons have to lose energy?
    $endgroup$
    – Dmitry Grigoryev
    Sep 12 at 7:50






  • 2




    $begingroup$
    Why do you say that the electron would GAIN energy as it goes around the loop?
    $endgroup$
    – Mike Brockington
    Sep 12 at 12:49







5




5




$begingroup$
Where does the Kirchhoff's voltage law say that electrons have to lose energy?
$endgroup$
– Dmitry Grigoryev
Sep 12 at 7:50




$begingroup$
Where does the Kirchhoff's voltage law say that electrons have to lose energy?
$endgroup$
– Dmitry Grigoryev
Sep 12 at 7:50




2




2




$begingroup$
Why do you say that the electron would GAIN energy as it goes around the loop?
$endgroup$
– Mike Brockington
Sep 12 at 12:49




$begingroup$
Why do you say that the electron would GAIN energy as it goes around the loop?
$endgroup$
– Mike Brockington
Sep 12 at 12:49










5 Answers
5






active

oldest

votes


















18

















$begingroup$

I mean the basic principle is, you're right, this setup is described by the math of classical electrical circuits as one which should drive an infinite current, and if you only have one charge to move then an infinite current necessitates it moving with infinite speed. If you do not give it a way to lose energy then it will continue to gain energy indefinitely.



Kirchhoff's voltage law can still be applied to such a condition but it is somewhat less informative. The voltage law comes from the fact that there is a scalar potential field $varphi$ defined over space, it is just one field, it has only one value and no other. It is something like wondering why I cannot gain infinite energy by sledding down a hill: well, whatever speed you are getting on the way down, I can prove that you’re in for an equal-and-opposite trek up. So if this field is well-defined then Kirchhoff’s voltage law holds good.



This field $varphi$ in turn comes from the Maxwell equations, which in my favorite units look like,$$
beginalign
nabla cdot E &= crho & nablatimes E &= -dot B\
nabla cdot B &= 0 & nabla times B &= J + dot E
endalign
$$

where $dot X = partial X/partial w = c^-1 partial X/partial t.$



First, the bottom-left one is used to rewrite $B = nabla times A$ for some “vector potential” $A$ and then the top-right one says $$nabla times (E + dot A) = 0$$
implying that there exists a scalar potential function $varphi$ such that $$E + dot A = -nabla varphi.$$
So this is a mathematical theorem, this scalar function $varphi$ always exists. You can really say that there is a voltage drop of 6 volts from one side of the terminal to the other, and that is fine. Kirchhoff’s voltage law holds everywhere.



But notice what is not said: the connection to a particle’s kinetic energy depends on work which depends on this electric field $E$ and its behavior over closed loops. And $nablavarphi$ vanishes over closed loops, but there is no reason that $dot A$ must, and so a particle can gain/lose energy in a closed loop, if the vector potential is increasing/decreasing in time.



So, normally we can just step back from a circuit and assume that whatever the vector potential $A$ is, the circuit comes to some equilibrium value where it is not changing and $dot A = 0$. Then $E = -nabla phi$ and we know that the thing must have lost all of its energy by the time that it comes back around the loop. That is how we know that the electron has lost its energy.



But, in the case that you are describing, we know that the Liénard–Wiechert potentials $phi, A$ for a moving charge contain an $A$ which runs parallel to the charge, in rough proportion to its speed. As the charge is going faster and faster, this $A$ is increasing and increasing around the loop, and this factor of $dot A$ is non-negligible.



Kirchhoff’s rule is not technically wrong, what is wrong is the assumption that energy only changes from a change in potential, that these go hand-in-hand. The Maxwell equations do not say this, they say instead that there is this other thing, this vector-potential $A$, which must change in that scenario.






share|cite|improve this answer










$endgroup$














  • $begingroup$
    While I admire you bringing Lienard-Wiechart potentials to bear in this answer, I hope you realize you did just open a very large, quantum mechanical can of worms. See here. If we start thinking too hard and too classically about how electrons move around a circuit, we run into a multitude of problems.
    $endgroup$
    – Charles Hudgins
    Sep 12 at 7:44










  • $begingroup$
    Very good answer except for the beginning, the current won't be infinite in any finite time, mainly due to self inductance of the circuit, which makes the rate of current increase finite. Even if there was merely a single mobile charge without any circuit self inductance, it would not get accelerated to infinite speed in finite time.
    $endgroup$
    – Ján Lalinský
    Sep 12 at 17:24






  • 1




    $begingroup$
    Who said anything about finite time?
    $endgroup$
    – CR Drost
    Sep 12 at 17:29










  • $begingroup$
    It is the default in all questions about what happens, it does not need to be said. What would happen in the limit of infinite time is a mathematical detail that is not the best thing to focus on in this question.
    $endgroup$
    – Ján Lalinský
    Sep 12 at 19:18


















8

















$begingroup$

Kirchhoff's circuit laws (both the current law and the voltage law) apply in the lumped circuit approximation only.



That means they apply when the circuit can be accurately modeled as a collection of lumped components whose physical extent is insignificant; connected by ideal wires, with no significant magnetic fields coupled to the wires, and no significant charge storage in the wires.



As such, we don't expect these laws to apply to the situation of an isolated electron floating in space.



If you had in mind a situation where the two ends of your battery are connected by a wire, then it's unphysical to imagine there's only a single free electron present in that wire, or that the electrons don't interact with the atoms in the wire (which will transfer energy to the wire).






share|cite|improve this answer












$endgroup$






















    6

















    $begingroup$


    If the circuit had zero resistance, wouldn't it just gain more and more energy as it loops around the circuit again and again,




    Assuming that the fundamental circuit-theory assumptions* hold, then if the circuit had zero resistance it would still have non-zero inductance. So the energy from the battery would go into the magnetic field of the inductance. There would be a voltage across the rest of the circuit equal and opposite the voltage across the battery. So Kirchoff’s voltage law would hold.



    *The fundamental assumptions of circuit theory are that there is no net charge on any circuit element, there is no magnetic coupling between circuit elements, and the circuit is small compared to the speed of light and the time scales of interest. Once those assumptions are met Kirchoff’s current and voltage laws follow.






    share|cite|improve this answer












    $endgroup$










    • 1




      $begingroup$
      By the "usual circuit-theory assumptions", do you mean ideal circuit theory assumptions? If so, I don't think it is correct to say that zero resistance wires have non-zero inductance (in ideal circuit theory). See, for example, the answer by The Photon.
      $endgroup$
      – Alfred Centauri
      Sep 12 at 2:00







    • 1




      $begingroup$
      Dale, ideal wires in (ideal) circuit theory have zero inductance. This is well known. Do you disagree?
      $endgroup$
      – Alfred Centauri
      Sep 12 at 2:13






    • 1




      $begingroup$
      Dale, the OP didn't specify ideal wires but you invoked the assumptions of circuit theory within which wires have zero inductance. The first sentence of your answer is almost certainly false. For example: "In circuit theory, the wire form and size are assumed to have no effect on circuit behavior and they are assumed to be short-circuit interconnections". Of course, physical wires do have non-zero inductance but, in circuit theory, they don't. Circuit simulators operate under this assumption (two junctions connected by a wire are the same node)
      $endgroup$
      – Alfred Centauri
      Sep 12 at 10:15







    • 1




      $begingroup$
      Dale, the point Alfred is making is that your wording is problematic, because "the usual circuit-theory" does not assign wires a nonzero inductance. By assuming nonzero inductance, you are extending the discussion beyond that theory, to Maxwell field equations or at least to models with distributed parameters. Which is a fine thing to mention, after all, real wires do have self-inductance and it is important to take it into account in the scenario asked about.
      $endgroup$
      – Ján Lalinský
      Sep 12 at 21:36






    • 1




      $begingroup$
      Dale, I'm afraid there's been a misunderstanding so let me try a slightly different wording so that the point I attempted to make in my previous comment is clear: "... the OP didn't specify ideal wires but you invoked the assumptions of circuit theory, and within circuit theory, wires have zero inductance". I believe that this is uncontroversial. Also, I have no interest in a continued discussion in chat as I honestly don't see any value to be gained from it.
      $endgroup$
      – Alfred Centauri
      Sep 12 at 23:50



















    0

















    $begingroup$

    In the particular case you describe, the electric field is generated by the separated charges in the battery. A battery roughly consists of 2 chambers, one with negatively charged matter, one with positively charged one (there are different ways to achieve this setup, most of them make the charge separation happen by electrochemical processes).



    For the sake of the argument it is only important that there is a mechanism which separates the charges in a way that going from terminal 1 (connected to chamber 1) to terminal 2 (connected to chamber2)), a charge of one $C$ will get the Energy of $6 J$.



    Since the electric field is generated only from this separated charges, it is a conservative field. Moving in this field, a particle can't get energy from one complete roundtrip. Connecting both terminals of the battery, a testcharge of $ 1 C$ will be brought from one terminal to the other terminal by this electric field, gaining $6 J$ of Energy. It would require exactly this $6 J$ again to move it from the second terminal, through the battery, back to terminal 1.



    In this case Kirchhoffs Voltage-Law is perfectly valid, because it only makes statements about the Work that is done by the electric field (There are other cases with non-conservative electric fields where the law is still valid, essentially because one looks only at a part of the electric field and makes certain further assumptions about it in those cases, but that should not matter here).



    Your second observation is however not wrong: You mention the chemical potential of the battery, which is responsible for the charge separation. This chemical potential moves (by a nonconservative force) a charge from terminal 2 back to terminal 1, against the electric field in the battery. By that it ensures that the battery maintains its terminal voltage of $6 V$. It however isn't said that it will move exactly the electron that already completed one roundtrip.



    Let's assume that the chemical potential would always bring the same electron that completed one roundtrip back to terminal 1. Then this electron would effectively see a forcefield which is a combination of the electric field (conservative) and the nonconservative "force"-Field by the electrochemics of the battery. This would all in all (as you observed) be a nonconservative field, and an electron would gain energy for each roundtrip. Energy conservation doesn't apply here, as chemical energy is transformed to kinetic energy of the electron.



    However, Kirchhoff's Law still holds here, because energy conservation and Kirchhoff's Law are two things.






    share|cite|improve this answer










    $endgroup$














    • $begingroup$
      "Connecting both terminals of the battery, a testcharge of 1C will be brought from one terminal to the other terminal by this electric field, gaining 6J of Energy. It would require exactly this 6J again to move it from the second terminal, through the battery, back to terminal 1" So then if I then add a resistor it takes more energy to go around the circuit than is given by the battery since it still takes 6J to move through the battery thus disproving Kirchoff's law.
      $endgroup$
      – John
      Sep 12 at 13:22











    • $begingroup$
      Again: Kirchhoff's Law doesn't make a statement about the energy a testcharge gets while completing one roundtrip. It makes (in the electrostatic case) a statement about that portion of the energy which is generated by the electric field acting on the testcharge. Neither the resistance (nonconservative nonelectric "friction"-force acting on the charge, sucking out energy) nor the chemical potential (nonconservative nonelectric "chemical"-force acting on the charge, bringing in energy) do play a role here.
      $endgroup$
      – Quantumwhisp
      Sep 12 at 13:39


















    0

















    $begingroup$


    If we consider a single electron going around a closed loop, with a battery giving an EMF of 6 V, why does the electron have to lose the energy in the loop?




    It is important to make sure we know which energy we are talking about. In real wires which pose dissipative resistance to motion of mobile charge carriers, the electron, as it moves along the wire, releases some energy into the wire. This energy comes (usually) from electromagnetic field near the electron, not from the electron's own store of energy; if electric current is constant in time, as in stationary DC circuit, the electron itself does not lose any kinetic or rest energy; it just funnels EM energy around it into the conductor where it becomes internal energy (the conductor heats up).



    In situations where the EM field in conductor is mainly due to spatial variation of electric potential $varphi$ (such as in a DC circuit with a battery or charged capacitor), we can restate the above and say the released energy is due to loss of potential energy of the electron $qvarphi$ as it moves from lower potential place to higher potential place. The conservative electric field with potential $varphi$ is maintained in the circuit by the battery or capacitor.



    But there are other situations where the EM field maintaining the current is not due to spatial variation of electric potential, but due to induced electric field.



    Induced electric field has the same effect on mobile charges and conductor as conservative electric field: it may initiate and maintain electric current, while heat is being released into the conductor. This electric field cannot be described by any electric potential $varphi$.



    The electric potential $varphi$ can always be defined based on the above conservative field, but in cases where the whole electric field is equal to induced field, the potential will be the same in the whole circuit. Because $varphi$ is the same everywhere now, the electron does not lose any potential energy as it goes around the circuit. It however still releases heat, so energy of EM field is still being transformed into heat. Again, the electron is just a device to release the energy of the EM field into the conductor, but not the loser of energy.



    A conductor with zero resistance will not allow the EM energy to change into heat. So if there is electric field in such conductor, the mobile charge carriers will be accelerated, the electric current will increase and the EM energy will be transformed partly into magnetic energy of the circuit (most of it), partly into kinetic energy of the mobile charge carriers (a very minor part).




    If the circuit had zero resistance, wouldn't the electron just gain more and more energy as it loops around the circuit again and again, thus breaking Kirchhoff's voltage law and failing to conserve of energy, since the chemical potential of the battery gives the energy?




    Yes, it would gain kinetic energy, but not potential energy. Potential energy would increase when passing from one terminal of the battery to another, but would decrease by the same amount when traversing the rest of the circuit.






    share|cite|improve this answer










    $endgroup$
















      Your Answer








      StackExchange.ready(function()
      var channelOptions =
      tags: "".split(" "),
      id: "151"
      ;
      initTagRenderer("".split(" "), "".split(" "), channelOptions);

      StackExchange.using("externalEditor", function()
      // Have to fire editor after snippets, if snippets enabled
      if (StackExchange.settings.snippets.snippetsEnabled)
      StackExchange.using("snippets", function()
      createEditor();
      );

      else
      createEditor();

      );

      function createEditor()
      StackExchange.prepareEditor(
      heartbeatType: 'answer',
      autoActivateHeartbeat: false,
      convertImagesToLinks: false,
      noModals: true,
      showLowRepImageUploadWarning: true,
      reputationToPostImages: null,
      bindNavPrevention: true,
      postfix: "",
      imageUploader:
      brandingHtml: "Powered by u003ca class="icon-imgur-white" href="https://imgur.com/"u003eu003c/au003e",
      contentPolicyHtml: "User contributions licensed under u003ca href="https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/"u003ecc by-sa 4.0 with attribution requiredu003c/au003e u003ca href="https://stackoverflow.com/legal/content-policy"u003e(content policy)u003c/au003e",
      allowUrls: true
      ,
      noCode: true, onDemand: true,
      discardSelector: ".discard-answer"
      ,immediatelyShowMarkdownHelp:true
      );



      );














      draft saved

      draft discarded
















      StackExchange.ready(
      function ()
      StackExchange.openid.initPostLogin('.new-post-login', 'https%3a%2f%2fphysics.stackexchange.com%2fquestions%2f502286%2fwhy-is-kirchhoffs-voltage-law-true-in-a-dc-circuit%23new-answer', 'question_page');

      );

      Post as a guest















      Required, but never shown


























      5 Answers
      5






      active

      oldest

      votes








      5 Answers
      5






      active

      oldest

      votes









      active

      oldest

      votes






      active

      oldest

      votes









      18

















      $begingroup$

      I mean the basic principle is, you're right, this setup is described by the math of classical electrical circuits as one which should drive an infinite current, and if you only have one charge to move then an infinite current necessitates it moving with infinite speed. If you do not give it a way to lose energy then it will continue to gain energy indefinitely.



      Kirchhoff's voltage law can still be applied to such a condition but it is somewhat less informative. The voltage law comes from the fact that there is a scalar potential field $varphi$ defined over space, it is just one field, it has only one value and no other. It is something like wondering why I cannot gain infinite energy by sledding down a hill: well, whatever speed you are getting on the way down, I can prove that you’re in for an equal-and-opposite trek up. So if this field is well-defined then Kirchhoff’s voltage law holds good.



      This field $varphi$ in turn comes from the Maxwell equations, which in my favorite units look like,$$
      beginalign
      nabla cdot E &= crho & nablatimes E &= -dot B\
      nabla cdot B &= 0 & nabla times B &= J + dot E
      endalign
      $$

      where $dot X = partial X/partial w = c^-1 partial X/partial t.$



      First, the bottom-left one is used to rewrite $B = nabla times A$ for some “vector potential” $A$ and then the top-right one says $$nabla times (E + dot A) = 0$$
      implying that there exists a scalar potential function $varphi$ such that $$E + dot A = -nabla varphi.$$
      So this is a mathematical theorem, this scalar function $varphi$ always exists. You can really say that there is a voltage drop of 6 volts from one side of the terminal to the other, and that is fine. Kirchhoff’s voltage law holds everywhere.



      But notice what is not said: the connection to a particle’s kinetic energy depends on work which depends on this electric field $E$ and its behavior over closed loops. And $nablavarphi$ vanishes over closed loops, but there is no reason that $dot A$ must, and so a particle can gain/lose energy in a closed loop, if the vector potential is increasing/decreasing in time.



      So, normally we can just step back from a circuit and assume that whatever the vector potential $A$ is, the circuit comes to some equilibrium value where it is not changing and $dot A = 0$. Then $E = -nabla phi$ and we know that the thing must have lost all of its energy by the time that it comes back around the loop. That is how we know that the electron has lost its energy.



      But, in the case that you are describing, we know that the Liénard–Wiechert potentials $phi, A$ for a moving charge contain an $A$ which runs parallel to the charge, in rough proportion to its speed. As the charge is going faster and faster, this $A$ is increasing and increasing around the loop, and this factor of $dot A$ is non-negligible.



      Kirchhoff’s rule is not technically wrong, what is wrong is the assumption that energy only changes from a change in potential, that these go hand-in-hand. The Maxwell equations do not say this, they say instead that there is this other thing, this vector-potential $A$, which must change in that scenario.






      share|cite|improve this answer










      $endgroup$














      • $begingroup$
        While I admire you bringing Lienard-Wiechart potentials to bear in this answer, I hope you realize you did just open a very large, quantum mechanical can of worms. See here. If we start thinking too hard and too classically about how electrons move around a circuit, we run into a multitude of problems.
        $endgroup$
        – Charles Hudgins
        Sep 12 at 7:44










      • $begingroup$
        Very good answer except for the beginning, the current won't be infinite in any finite time, mainly due to self inductance of the circuit, which makes the rate of current increase finite. Even if there was merely a single mobile charge without any circuit self inductance, it would not get accelerated to infinite speed in finite time.
        $endgroup$
        – Ján Lalinský
        Sep 12 at 17:24






      • 1




        $begingroup$
        Who said anything about finite time?
        $endgroup$
        – CR Drost
        Sep 12 at 17:29










      • $begingroup$
        It is the default in all questions about what happens, it does not need to be said. What would happen in the limit of infinite time is a mathematical detail that is not the best thing to focus on in this question.
        $endgroup$
        – Ján Lalinský
        Sep 12 at 19:18















      18

















      $begingroup$

      I mean the basic principle is, you're right, this setup is described by the math of classical electrical circuits as one which should drive an infinite current, and if you only have one charge to move then an infinite current necessitates it moving with infinite speed. If you do not give it a way to lose energy then it will continue to gain energy indefinitely.



      Kirchhoff's voltage law can still be applied to such a condition but it is somewhat less informative. The voltage law comes from the fact that there is a scalar potential field $varphi$ defined over space, it is just one field, it has only one value and no other. It is something like wondering why I cannot gain infinite energy by sledding down a hill: well, whatever speed you are getting on the way down, I can prove that you’re in for an equal-and-opposite trek up. So if this field is well-defined then Kirchhoff’s voltage law holds good.



      This field $varphi$ in turn comes from the Maxwell equations, which in my favorite units look like,$$
      beginalign
      nabla cdot E &= crho & nablatimes E &= -dot B\
      nabla cdot B &= 0 & nabla times B &= J + dot E
      endalign
      $$

      where $dot X = partial X/partial w = c^-1 partial X/partial t.$



      First, the bottom-left one is used to rewrite $B = nabla times A$ for some “vector potential” $A$ and then the top-right one says $$nabla times (E + dot A) = 0$$
      implying that there exists a scalar potential function $varphi$ such that $$E + dot A = -nabla varphi.$$
      So this is a mathematical theorem, this scalar function $varphi$ always exists. You can really say that there is a voltage drop of 6 volts from one side of the terminal to the other, and that is fine. Kirchhoff’s voltage law holds everywhere.



      But notice what is not said: the connection to a particle’s kinetic energy depends on work which depends on this electric field $E$ and its behavior over closed loops. And $nablavarphi$ vanishes over closed loops, but there is no reason that $dot A$ must, and so a particle can gain/lose energy in a closed loop, if the vector potential is increasing/decreasing in time.



      So, normally we can just step back from a circuit and assume that whatever the vector potential $A$ is, the circuit comes to some equilibrium value where it is not changing and $dot A = 0$. Then $E = -nabla phi$ and we know that the thing must have lost all of its energy by the time that it comes back around the loop. That is how we know that the electron has lost its energy.



      But, in the case that you are describing, we know that the Liénard–Wiechert potentials $phi, A$ for a moving charge contain an $A$ which runs parallel to the charge, in rough proportion to its speed. As the charge is going faster and faster, this $A$ is increasing and increasing around the loop, and this factor of $dot A$ is non-negligible.



      Kirchhoff’s rule is not technically wrong, what is wrong is the assumption that energy only changes from a change in potential, that these go hand-in-hand. The Maxwell equations do not say this, they say instead that there is this other thing, this vector-potential $A$, which must change in that scenario.






      share|cite|improve this answer










      $endgroup$














      • $begingroup$
        While I admire you bringing Lienard-Wiechart potentials to bear in this answer, I hope you realize you did just open a very large, quantum mechanical can of worms. See here. If we start thinking too hard and too classically about how electrons move around a circuit, we run into a multitude of problems.
        $endgroup$
        – Charles Hudgins
        Sep 12 at 7:44










      • $begingroup$
        Very good answer except for the beginning, the current won't be infinite in any finite time, mainly due to self inductance of the circuit, which makes the rate of current increase finite. Even if there was merely a single mobile charge without any circuit self inductance, it would not get accelerated to infinite speed in finite time.
        $endgroup$
        – Ján Lalinský
        Sep 12 at 17:24






      • 1




        $begingroup$
        Who said anything about finite time?
        $endgroup$
        – CR Drost
        Sep 12 at 17:29










      • $begingroup$
        It is the default in all questions about what happens, it does not need to be said. What would happen in the limit of infinite time is a mathematical detail that is not the best thing to focus on in this question.
        $endgroup$
        – Ján Lalinský
        Sep 12 at 19:18













      18















      18











      18







      $begingroup$

      I mean the basic principle is, you're right, this setup is described by the math of classical electrical circuits as one which should drive an infinite current, and if you only have one charge to move then an infinite current necessitates it moving with infinite speed. If you do not give it a way to lose energy then it will continue to gain energy indefinitely.



      Kirchhoff's voltage law can still be applied to such a condition but it is somewhat less informative. The voltage law comes from the fact that there is a scalar potential field $varphi$ defined over space, it is just one field, it has only one value and no other. It is something like wondering why I cannot gain infinite energy by sledding down a hill: well, whatever speed you are getting on the way down, I can prove that you’re in for an equal-and-opposite trek up. So if this field is well-defined then Kirchhoff’s voltage law holds good.



      This field $varphi$ in turn comes from the Maxwell equations, which in my favorite units look like,$$
      beginalign
      nabla cdot E &= crho & nablatimes E &= -dot B\
      nabla cdot B &= 0 & nabla times B &= J + dot E
      endalign
      $$

      where $dot X = partial X/partial w = c^-1 partial X/partial t.$



      First, the bottom-left one is used to rewrite $B = nabla times A$ for some “vector potential” $A$ and then the top-right one says $$nabla times (E + dot A) = 0$$
      implying that there exists a scalar potential function $varphi$ such that $$E + dot A = -nabla varphi.$$
      So this is a mathematical theorem, this scalar function $varphi$ always exists. You can really say that there is a voltage drop of 6 volts from one side of the terminal to the other, and that is fine. Kirchhoff’s voltage law holds everywhere.



      But notice what is not said: the connection to a particle’s kinetic energy depends on work which depends on this electric field $E$ and its behavior over closed loops. And $nablavarphi$ vanishes over closed loops, but there is no reason that $dot A$ must, and so a particle can gain/lose energy in a closed loop, if the vector potential is increasing/decreasing in time.



      So, normally we can just step back from a circuit and assume that whatever the vector potential $A$ is, the circuit comes to some equilibrium value where it is not changing and $dot A = 0$. Then $E = -nabla phi$ and we know that the thing must have lost all of its energy by the time that it comes back around the loop. That is how we know that the electron has lost its energy.



      But, in the case that you are describing, we know that the Liénard–Wiechert potentials $phi, A$ for a moving charge contain an $A$ which runs parallel to the charge, in rough proportion to its speed. As the charge is going faster and faster, this $A$ is increasing and increasing around the loop, and this factor of $dot A$ is non-negligible.



      Kirchhoff’s rule is not technically wrong, what is wrong is the assumption that energy only changes from a change in potential, that these go hand-in-hand. The Maxwell equations do not say this, they say instead that there is this other thing, this vector-potential $A$, which must change in that scenario.






      share|cite|improve this answer










      $endgroup$



      I mean the basic principle is, you're right, this setup is described by the math of classical electrical circuits as one which should drive an infinite current, and if you only have one charge to move then an infinite current necessitates it moving with infinite speed. If you do not give it a way to lose energy then it will continue to gain energy indefinitely.



      Kirchhoff's voltage law can still be applied to such a condition but it is somewhat less informative. The voltage law comes from the fact that there is a scalar potential field $varphi$ defined over space, it is just one field, it has only one value and no other. It is something like wondering why I cannot gain infinite energy by sledding down a hill: well, whatever speed you are getting on the way down, I can prove that you’re in for an equal-and-opposite trek up. So if this field is well-defined then Kirchhoff’s voltage law holds good.



      This field $varphi$ in turn comes from the Maxwell equations, which in my favorite units look like,$$
      beginalign
      nabla cdot E &= crho & nablatimes E &= -dot B\
      nabla cdot B &= 0 & nabla times B &= J + dot E
      endalign
      $$

      where $dot X = partial X/partial w = c^-1 partial X/partial t.$



      First, the bottom-left one is used to rewrite $B = nabla times A$ for some “vector potential” $A$ and then the top-right one says $$nabla times (E + dot A) = 0$$
      implying that there exists a scalar potential function $varphi$ such that $$E + dot A = -nabla varphi.$$
      So this is a mathematical theorem, this scalar function $varphi$ always exists. You can really say that there is a voltage drop of 6 volts from one side of the terminal to the other, and that is fine. Kirchhoff’s voltage law holds everywhere.



      But notice what is not said: the connection to a particle’s kinetic energy depends on work which depends on this electric field $E$ and its behavior over closed loops. And $nablavarphi$ vanishes over closed loops, but there is no reason that $dot A$ must, and so a particle can gain/lose energy in a closed loop, if the vector potential is increasing/decreasing in time.



      So, normally we can just step back from a circuit and assume that whatever the vector potential $A$ is, the circuit comes to some equilibrium value where it is not changing and $dot A = 0$. Then $E = -nabla phi$ and we know that the thing must have lost all of its energy by the time that it comes back around the loop. That is how we know that the electron has lost its energy.



      But, in the case that you are describing, we know that the Liénard–Wiechert potentials $phi, A$ for a moving charge contain an $A$ which runs parallel to the charge, in rough proportion to its speed. As the charge is going faster and faster, this $A$ is increasing and increasing around the loop, and this factor of $dot A$ is non-negligible.



      Kirchhoff’s rule is not technically wrong, what is wrong is the assumption that energy only changes from a change in potential, that these go hand-in-hand. The Maxwell equations do not say this, they say instead that there is this other thing, this vector-potential $A$, which must change in that scenario.







      share|cite|improve this answer













      share|cite|improve this answer




      share|cite|improve this answer










      answered Sep 11 at 16:47









      CR DrostCR Drost

      26k2 gold badges23 silver badges71 bronze badges




      26k2 gold badges23 silver badges71 bronze badges














      • $begingroup$
        While I admire you bringing Lienard-Wiechart potentials to bear in this answer, I hope you realize you did just open a very large, quantum mechanical can of worms. See here. If we start thinking too hard and too classically about how electrons move around a circuit, we run into a multitude of problems.
        $endgroup$
        – Charles Hudgins
        Sep 12 at 7:44










      • $begingroup$
        Very good answer except for the beginning, the current won't be infinite in any finite time, mainly due to self inductance of the circuit, which makes the rate of current increase finite. Even if there was merely a single mobile charge without any circuit self inductance, it would not get accelerated to infinite speed in finite time.
        $endgroup$
        – Ján Lalinský
        Sep 12 at 17:24






      • 1




        $begingroup$
        Who said anything about finite time?
        $endgroup$
        – CR Drost
        Sep 12 at 17:29










      • $begingroup$
        It is the default in all questions about what happens, it does not need to be said. What would happen in the limit of infinite time is a mathematical detail that is not the best thing to focus on in this question.
        $endgroup$
        – Ján Lalinský
        Sep 12 at 19:18
















      • $begingroup$
        While I admire you bringing Lienard-Wiechart potentials to bear in this answer, I hope you realize you did just open a very large, quantum mechanical can of worms. See here. If we start thinking too hard and too classically about how electrons move around a circuit, we run into a multitude of problems.
        $endgroup$
        – Charles Hudgins
        Sep 12 at 7:44










      • $begingroup$
        Very good answer except for the beginning, the current won't be infinite in any finite time, mainly due to self inductance of the circuit, which makes the rate of current increase finite. Even if there was merely a single mobile charge without any circuit self inductance, it would not get accelerated to infinite speed in finite time.
        $endgroup$
        – Ján Lalinský
        Sep 12 at 17:24






      • 1




        $begingroup$
        Who said anything about finite time?
        $endgroup$
        – CR Drost
        Sep 12 at 17:29










      • $begingroup$
        It is the default in all questions about what happens, it does not need to be said. What would happen in the limit of infinite time is a mathematical detail that is not the best thing to focus on in this question.
        $endgroup$
        – Ján Lalinský
        Sep 12 at 19:18















      $begingroup$
      While I admire you bringing Lienard-Wiechart potentials to bear in this answer, I hope you realize you did just open a very large, quantum mechanical can of worms. See here. If we start thinking too hard and too classically about how electrons move around a circuit, we run into a multitude of problems.
      $endgroup$
      – Charles Hudgins
      Sep 12 at 7:44




      $begingroup$
      While I admire you bringing Lienard-Wiechart potentials to bear in this answer, I hope you realize you did just open a very large, quantum mechanical can of worms. See here. If we start thinking too hard and too classically about how electrons move around a circuit, we run into a multitude of problems.
      $endgroup$
      – Charles Hudgins
      Sep 12 at 7:44












      $begingroup$
      Very good answer except for the beginning, the current won't be infinite in any finite time, mainly due to self inductance of the circuit, which makes the rate of current increase finite. Even if there was merely a single mobile charge without any circuit self inductance, it would not get accelerated to infinite speed in finite time.
      $endgroup$
      – Ján Lalinský
      Sep 12 at 17:24




      $begingroup$
      Very good answer except for the beginning, the current won't be infinite in any finite time, mainly due to self inductance of the circuit, which makes the rate of current increase finite. Even if there was merely a single mobile charge without any circuit self inductance, it would not get accelerated to infinite speed in finite time.
      $endgroup$
      – Ján Lalinský
      Sep 12 at 17:24




      1




      1




      $begingroup$
      Who said anything about finite time?
      $endgroup$
      – CR Drost
      Sep 12 at 17:29




      $begingroup$
      Who said anything about finite time?
      $endgroup$
      – CR Drost
      Sep 12 at 17:29












      $begingroup$
      It is the default in all questions about what happens, it does not need to be said. What would happen in the limit of infinite time is a mathematical detail that is not the best thing to focus on in this question.
      $endgroup$
      – Ján Lalinský
      Sep 12 at 19:18




      $begingroup$
      It is the default in all questions about what happens, it does not need to be said. What would happen in the limit of infinite time is a mathematical detail that is not the best thing to focus on in this question.
      $endgroup$
      – Ján Lalinský
      Sep 12 at 19:18













      8

















      $begingroup$

      Kirchhoff's circuit laws (both the current law and the voltage law) apply in the lumped circuit approximation only.



      That means they apply when the circuit can be accurately modeled as a collection of lumped components whose physical extent is insignificant; connected by ideal wires, with no significant magnetic fields coupled to the wires, and no significant charge storage in the wires.



      As such, we don't expect these laws to apply to the situation of an isolated electron floating in space.



      If you had in mind a situation where the two ends of your battery are connected by a wire, then it's unphysical to imagine there's only a single free electron present in that wire, or that the electrons don't interact with the atoms in the wire (which will transfer energy to the wire).






      share|cite|improve this answer












      $endgroup$



















        8

















        $begingroup$

        Kirchhoff's circuit laws (both the current law and the voltage law) apply in the lumped circuit approximation only.



        That means they apply when the circuit can be accurately modeled as a collection of lumped components whose physical extent is insignificant; connected by ideal wires, with no significant magnetic fields coupled to the wires, and no significant charge storage in the wires.



        As such, we don't expect these laws to apply to the situation of an isolated electron floating in space.



        If you had in mind a situation where the two ends of your battery are connected by a wire, then it's unphysical to imagine there's only a single free electron present in that wire, or that the electrons don't interact with the atoms in the wire (which will transfer energy to the wire).






        share|cite|improve this answer












        $endgroup$

















          8















          8











          8







          $begingroup$

          Kirchhoff's circuit laws (both the current law and the voltage law) apply in the lumped circuit approximation only.



          That means they apply when the circuit can be accurately modeled as a collection of lumped components whose physical extent is insignificant; connected by ideal wires, with no significant magnetic fields coupled to the wires, and no significant charge storage in the wires.



          As such, we don't expect these laws to apply to the situation of an isolated electron floating in space.



          If you had in mind a situation where the two ends of your battery are connected by a wire, then it's unphysical to imagine there's only a single free electron present in that wire, or that the electrons don't interact with the atoms in the wire (which will transfer energy to the wire).






          share|cite|improve this answer












          $endgroup$



          Kirchhoff's circuit laws (both the current law and the voltage law) apply in the lumped circuit approximation only.



          That means they apply when the circuit can be accurately modeled as a collection of lumped components whose physical extent is insignificant; connected by ideal wires, with no significant magnetic fields coupled to the wires, and no significant charge storage in the wires.



          As such, we don't expect these laws to apply to the situation of an isolated electron floating in space.



          If you had in mind a situation where the two ends of your battery are connected by a wire, then it's unphysical to imagine there's only a single free electron present in that wire, or that the electrons don't interact with the atoms in the wire (which will transfer energy to the wire).







          share|cite|improve this answer















          share|cite|improve this answer




          share|cite|improve this answer








          edited Sep 12 at 15:46

























          answered Sep 11 at 16:07









          The PhotonThe Photon

          13k1 gold badge26 silver badges42 bronze badges




          13k1 gold badge26 silver badges42 bronze badges
























              6

















              $begingroup$


              If the circuit had zero resistance, wouldn't it just gain more and more energy as it loops around the circuit again and again,




              Assuming that the fundamental circuit-theory assumptions* hold, then if the circuit had zero resistance it would still have non-zero inductance. So the energy from the battery would go into the magnetic field of the inductance. There would be a voltage across the rest of the circuit equal and opposite the voltage across the battery. So Kirchoff’s voltage law would hold.



              *The fundamental assumptions of circuit theory are that there is no net charge on any circuit element, there is no magnetic coupling between circuit elements, and the circuit is small compared to the speed of light and the time scales of interest. Once those assumptions are met Kirchoff’s current and voltage laws follow.






              share|cite|improve this answer












              $endgroup$










              • 1




                $begingroup$
                By the "usual circuit-theory assumptions", do you mean ideal circuit theory assumptions? If so, I don't think it is correct to say that zero resistance wires have non-zero inductance (in ideal circuit theory). See, for example, the answer by The Photon.
                $endgroup$
                – Alfred Centauri
                Sep 12 at 2:00







              • 1




                $begingroup$
                Dale, ideal wires in (ideal) circuit theory have zero inductance. This is well known. Do you disagree?
                $endgroup$
                – Alfred Centauri
                Sep 12 at 2:13






              • 1




                $begingroup$
                Dale, the OP didn't specify ideal wires but you invoked the assumptions of circuit theory within which wires have zero inductance. The first sentence of your answer is almost certainly false. For example: "In circuit theory, the wire form and size are assumed to have no effect on circuit behavior and they are assumed to be short-circuit interconnections". Of course, physical wires do have non-zero inductance but, in circuit theory, they don't. Circuit simulators operate under this assumption (two junctions connected by a wire are the same node)
                $endgroup$
                – Alfred Centauri
                Sep 12 at 10:15







              • 1




                $begingroup$
                Dale, the point Alfred is making is that your wording is problematic, because "the usual circuit-theory" does not assign wires a nonzero inductance. By assuming nonzero inductance, you are extending the discussion beyond that theory, to Maxwell field equations or at least to models with distributed parameters. Which is a fine thing to mention, after all, real wires do have self-inductance and it is important to take it into account in the scenario asked about.
                $endgroup$
                – Ján Lalinský
                Sep 12 at 21:36






              • 1




                $begingroup$
                Dale, I'm afraid there's been a misunderstanding so let me try a slightly different wording so that the point I attempted to make in my previous comment is clear: "... the OP didn't specify ideal wires but you invoked the assumptions of circuit theory, and within circuit theory, wires have zero inductance". I believe that this is uncontroversial. Also, I have no interest in a continued discussion in chat as I honestly don't see any value to be gained from it.
                $endgroup$
                – Alfred Centauri
                Sep 12 at 23:50
















              6

















              $begingroup$


              If the circuit had zero resistance, wouldn't it just gain more and more energy as it loops around the circuit again and again,




              Assuming that the fundamental circuit-theory assumptions* hold, then if the circuit had zero resistance it would still have non-zero inductance. So the energy from the battery would go into the magnetic field of the inductance. There would be a voltage across the rest of the circuit equal and opposite the voltage across the battery. So Kirchoff’s voltage law would hold.



              *The fundamental assumptions of circuit theory are that there is no net charge on any circuit element, there is no magnetic coupling between circuit elements, and the circuit is small compared to the speed of light and the time scales of interest. Once those assumptions are met Kirchoff’s current and voltage laws follow.






              share|cite|improve this answer












              $endgroup$










              • 1




                $begingroup$
                By the "usual circuit-theory assumptions", do you mean ideal circuit theory assumptions? If so, I don't think it is correct to say that zero resistance wires have non-zero inductance (in ideal circuit theory). See, for example, the answer by The Photon.
                $endgroup$
                – Alfred Centauri
                Sep 12 at 2:00







              • 1




                $begingroup$
                Dale, ideal wires in (ideal) circuit theory have zero inductance. This is well known. Do you disagree?
                $endgroup$
                – Alfred Centauri
                Sep 12 at 2:13






              • 1




                $begingroup$
                Dale, the OP didn't specify ideal wires but you invoked the assumptions of circuit theory within which wires have zero inductance. The first sentence of your answer is almost certainly false. For example: "In circuit theory, the wire form and size are assumed to have no effect on circuit behavior and they are assumed to be short-circuit interconnections". Of course, physical wires do have non-zero inductance but, in circuit theory, they don't. Circuit simulators operate under this assumption (two junctions connected by a wire are the same node)
                $endgroup$
                – Alfred Centauri
                Sep 12 at 10:15







              • 1




                $begingroup$
                Dale, the point Alfred is making is that your wording is problematic, because "the usual circuit-theory" does not assign wires a nonzero inductance. By assuming nonzero inductance, you are extending the discussion beyond that theory, to Maxwell field equations or at least to models with distributed parameters. Which is a fine thing to mention, after all, real wires do have self-inductance and it is important to take it into account in the scenario asked about.
                $endgroup$
                – Ján Lalinský
                Sep 12 at 21:36






              • 1




                $begingroup$
                Dale, I'm afraid there's been a misunderstanding so let me try a slightly different wording so that the point I attempted to make in my previous comment is clear: "... the OP didn't specify ideal wires but you invoked the assumptions of circuit theory, and within circuit theory, wires have zero inductance". I believe that this is uncontroversial. Also, I have no interest in a continued discussion in chat as I honestly don't see any value to be gained from it.
                $endgroup$
                – Alfred Centauri
                Sep 12 at 23:50














              6















              6











              6







              $begingroup$


              If the circuit had zero resistance, wouldn't it just gain more and more energy as it loops around the circuit again and again,




              Assuming that the fundamental circuit-theory assumptions* hold, then if the circuit had zero resistance it would still have non-zero inductance. So the energy from the battery would go into the magnetic field of the inductance. There would be a voltage across the rest of the circuit equal and opposite the voltage across the battery. So Kirchoff’s voltage law would hold.



              *The fundamental assumptions of circuit theory are that there is no net charge on any circuit element, there is no magnetic coupling between circuit elements, and the circuit is small compared to the speed of light and the time scales of interest. Once those assumptions are met Kirchoff’s current and voltage laws follow.






              share|cite|improve this answer












              $endgroup$




              If the circuit had zero resistance, wouldn't it just gain more and more energy as it loops around the circuit again and again,




              Assuming that the fundamental circuit-theory assumptions* hold, then if the circuit had zero resistance it would still have non-zero inductance. So the energy from the battery would go into the magnetic field of the inductance. There would be a voltage across the rest of the circuit equal and opposite the voltage across the battery. So Kirchoff’s voltage law would hold.



              *The fundamental assumptions of circuit theory are that there is no net charge on any circuit element, there is no magnetic coupling between circuit elements, and the circuit is small compared to the speed of light and the time scales of interest. Once those assumptions are met Kirchoff’s current and voltage laws follow.







              share|cite|improve this answer















              share|cite|improve this answer




              share|cite|improve this answer








              edited Sep 12 at 21:56

























              answered Sep 11 at 21:37









              DaleDale

              11.9k3 gold badges17 silver badges47 bronze badges




              11.9k3 gold badges17 silver badges47 bronze badges










              • 1




                $begingroup$
                By the "usual circuit-theory assumptions", do you mean ideal circuit theory assumptions? If so, I don't think it is correct to say that zero resistance wires have non-zero inductance (in ideal circuit theory). See, for example, the answer by The Photon.
                $endgroup$
                – Alfred Centauri
                Sep 12 at 2:00







              • 1




                $begingroup$
                Dale, ideal wires in (ideal) circuit theory have zero inductance. This is well known. Do you disagree?
                $endgroup$
                – Alfred Centauri
                Sep 12 at 2:13






              • 1




                $begingroup$
                Dale, the OP didn't specify ideal wires but you invoked the assumptions of circuit theory within which wires have zero inductance. The first sentence of your answer is almost certainly false. For example: "In circuit theory, the wire form and size are assumed to have no effect on circuit behavior and they are assumed to be short-circuit interconnections". Of course, physical wires do have non-zero inductance but, in circuit theory, they don't. Circuit simulators operate under this assumption (two junctions connected by a wire are the same node)
                $endgroup$
                – Alfred Centauri
                Sep 12 at 10:15







              • 1




                $begingroup$
                Dale, the point Alfred is making is that your wording is problematic, because "the usual circuit-theory" does not assign wires a nonzero inductance. By assuming nonzero inductance, you are extending the discussion beyond that theory, to Maxwell field equations or at least to models with distributed parameters. Which is a fine thing to mention, after all, real wires do have self-inductance and it is important to take it into account in the scenario asked about.
                $endgroup$
                – Ján Lalinský
                Sep 12 at 21:36






              • 1




                $begingroup$
                Dale, I'm afraid there's been a misunderstanding so let me try a slightly different wording so that the point I attempted to make in my previous comment is clear: "... the OP didn't specify ideal wires but you invoked the assumptions of circuit theory, and within circuit theory, wires have zero inductance". I believe that this is uncontroversial. Also, I have no interest in a continued discussion in chat as I honestly don't see any value to be gained from it.
                $endgroup$
                – Alfred Centauri
                Sep 12 at 23:50













              • 1




                $begingroup$
                By the "usual circuit-theory assumptions", do you mean ideal circuit theory assumptions? If so, I don't think it is correct to say that zero resistance wires have non-zero inductance (in ideal circuit theory). See, for example, the answer by The Photon.
                $endgroup$
                – Alfred Centauri
                Sep 12 at 2:00







              • 1




                $begingroup$
                Dale, ideal wires in (ideal) circuit theory have zero inductance. This is well known. Do you disagree?
                $endgroup$
                – Alfred Centauri
                Sep 12 at 2:13






              • 1




                $begingroup$
                Dale, the OP didn't specify ideal wires but you invoked the assumptions of circuit theory within which wires have zero inductance. The first sentence of your answer is almost certainly false. For example: "In circuit theory, the wire form and size are assumed to have no effect on circuit behavior and they are assumed to be short-circuit interconnections". Of course, physical wires do have non-zero inductance but, in circuit theory, they don't. Circuit simulators operate under this assumption (two junctions connected by a wire are the same node)
                $endgroup$
                – Alfred Centauri
                Sep 12 at 10:15







              • 1




                $begingroup$
                Dale, the point Alfred is making is that your wording is problematic, because "the usual circuit-theory" does not assign wires a nonzero inductance. By assuming nonzero inductance, you are extending the discussion beyond that theory, to Maxwell field equations or at least to models with distributed parameters. Which is a fine thing to mention, after all, real wires do have self-inductance and it is important to take it into account in the scenario asked about.
                $endgroup$
                – Ján Lalinský
                Sep 12 at 21:36






              • 1




                $begingroup$
                Dale, I'm afraid there's been a misunderstanding so let me try a slightly different wording so that the point I attempted to make in my previous comment is clear: "... the OP didn't specify ideal wires but you invoked the assumptions of circuit theory, and within circuit theory, wires have zero inductance". I believe that this is uncontroversial. Also, I have no interest in a continued discussion in chat as I honestly don't see any value to be gained from it.
                $endgroup$
                – Alfred Centauri
                Sep 12 at 23:50








              1




              1




              $begingroup$
              By the "usual circuit-theory assumptions", do you mean ideal circuit theory assumptions? If so, I don't think it is correct to say that zero resistance wires have non-zero inductance (in ideal circuit theory). See, for example, the answer by The Photon.
              $endgroup$
              – Alfred Centauri
              Sep 12 at 2:00





              $begingroup$
              By the "usual circuit-theory assumptions", do you mean ideal circuit theory assumptions? If so, I don't think it is correct to say that zero resistance wires have non-zero inductance (in ideal circuit theory). See, for example, the answer by The Photon.
              $endgroup$
              – Alfred Centauri
              Sep 12 at 2:00





              1




              1




              $begingroup$
              Dale, ideal wires in (ideal) circuit theory have zero inductance. This is well known. Do you disagree?
              $endgroup$
              – Alfred Centauri
              Sep 12 at 2:13




              $begingroup$
              Dale, ideal wires in (ideal) circuit theory have zero inductance. This is well known. Do you disagree?
              $endgroup$
              – Alfred Centauri
              Sep 12 at 2:13




              1




              1




              $begingroup$
              Dale, the OP didn't specify ideal wires but you invoked the assumptions of circuit theory within which wires have zero inductance. The first sentence of your answer is almost certainly false. For example: "In circuit theory, the wire form and size are assumed to have no effect on circuit behavior and they are assumed to be short-circuit interconnections". Of course, physical wires do have non-zero inductance but, in circuit theory, they don't. Circuit simulators operate under this assumption (two junctions connected by a wire are the same node)
              $endgroup$
              – Alfred Centauri
              Sep 12 at 10:15





              $begingroup$
              Dale, the OP didn't specify ideal wires but you invoked the assumptions of circuit theory within which wires have zero inductance. The first sentence of your answer is almost certainly false. For example: "In circuit theory, the wire form and size are assumed to have no effect on circuit behavior and they are assumed to be short-circuit interconnections". Of course, physical wires do have non-zero inductance but, in circuit theory, they don't. Circuit simulators operate under this assumption (two junctions connected by a wire are the same node)
              $endgroup$
              – Alfred Centauri
              Sep 12 at 10:15





              1




              1




              $begingroup$
              Dale, the point Alfred is making is that your wording is problematic, because "the usual circuit-theory" does not assign wires a nonzero inductance. By assuming nonzero inductance, you are extending the discussion beyond that theory, to Maxwell field equations or at least to models with distributed parameters. Which is a fine thing to mention, after all, real wires do have self-inductance and it is important to take it into account in the scenario asked about.
              $endgroup$
              – Ján Lalinský
              Sep 12 at 21:36




              $begingroup$
              Dale, the point Alfred is making is that your wording is problematic, because "the usual circuit-theory" does not assign wires a nonzero inductance. By assuming nonzero inductance, you are extending the discussion beyond that theory, to Maxwell field equations or at least to models with distributed parameters. Which is a fine thing to mention, after all, real wires do have self-inductance and it is important to take it into account in the scenario asked about.
              $endgroup$
              – Ján Lalinský
              Sep 12 at 21:36




              1




              1




              $begingroup$
              Dale, I'm afraid there's been a misunderstanding so let me try a slightly different wording so that the point I attempted to make in my previous comment is clear: "... the OP didn't specify ideal wires but you invoked the assumptions of circuit theory, and within circuit theory, wires have zero inductance". I believe that this is uncontroversial. Also, I have no interest in a continued discussion in chat as I honestly don't see any value to be gained from it.
              $endgroup$
              – Alfred Centauri
              Sep 12 at 23:50





              $begingroup$
              Dale, I'm afraid there's been a misunderstanding so let me try a slightly different wording so that the point I attempted to make in my previous comment is clear: "... the OP didn't specify ideal wires but you invoked the assumptions of circuit theory, and within circuit theory, wires have zero inductance". I believe that this is uncontroversial. Also, I have no interest in a continued discussion in chat as I honestly don't see any value to be gained from it.
              $endgroup$
              – Alfred Centauri
              Sep 12 at 23:50












              0

















              $begingroup$

              In the particular case you describe, the electric field is generated by the separated charges in the battery. A battery roughly consists of 2 chambers, one with negatively charged matter, one with positively charged one (there are different ways to achieve this setup, most of them make the charge separation happen by electrochemical processes).



              For the sake of the argument it is only important that there is a mechanism which separates the charges in a way that going from terminal 1 (connected to chamber 1) to terminal 2 (connected to chamber2)), a charge of one $C$ will get the Energy of $6 J$.



              Since the electric field is generated only from this separated charges, it is a conservative field. Moving in this field, a particle can't get energy from one complete roundtrip. Connecting both terminals of the battery, a testcharge of $ 1 C$ will be brought from one terminal to the other terminal by this electric field, gaining $6 J$ of Energy. It would require exactly this $6 J$ again to move it from the second terminal, through the battery, back to terminal 1.



              In this case Kirchhoffs Voltage-Law is perfectly valid, because it only makes statements about the Work that is done by the electric field (There are other cases with non-conservative electric fields where the law is still valid, essentially because one looks only at a part of the electric field and makes certain further assumptions about it in those cases, but that should not matter here).



              Your second observation is however not wrong: You mention the chemical potential of the battery, which is responsible for the charge separation. This chemical potential moves (by a nonconservative force) a charge from terminal 2 back to terminal 1, against the electric field in the battery. By that it ensures that the battery maintains its terminal voltage of $6 V$. It however isn't said that it will move exactly the electron that already completed one roundtrip.



              Let's assume that the chemical potential would always bring the same electron that completed one roundtrip back to terminal 1. Then this electron would effectively see a forcefield which is a combination of the electric field (conservative) and the nonconservative "force"-Field by the electrochemics of the battery. This would all in all (as you observed) be a nonconservative field, and an electron would gain energy for each roundtrip. Energy conservation doesn't apply here, as chemical energy is transformed to kinetic energy of the electron.



              However, Kirchhoff's Law still holds here, because energy conservation and Kirchhoff's Law are two things.






              share|cite|improve this answer










              $endgroup$














              • $begingroup$
                "Connecting both terminals of the battery, a testcharge of 1C will be brought from one terminal to the other terminal by this electric field, gaining 6J of Energy. It would require exactly this 6J again to move it from the second terminal, through the battery, back to terminal 1" So then if I then add a resistor it takes more energy to go around the circuit than is given by the battery since it still takes 6J to move through the battery thus disproving Kirchoff's law.
                $endgroup$
                – John
                Sep 12 at 13:22











              • $begingroup$
                Again: Kirchhoff's Law doesn't make a statement about the energy a testcharge gets while completing one roundtrip. It makes (in the electrostatic case) a statement about that portion of the energy which is generated by the electric field acting on the testcharge. Neither the resistance (nonconservative nonelectric "friction"-force acting on the charge, sucking out energy) nor the chemical potential (nonconservative nonelectric "chemical"-force acting on the charge, bringing in energy) do play a role here.
                $endgroup$
                – Quantumwhisp
                Sep 12 at 13:39















              0

















              $begingroup$

              In the particular case you describe, the electric field is generated by the separated charges in the battery. A battery roughly consists of 2 chambers, one with negatively charged matter, one with positively charged one (there are different ways to achieve this setup, most of them make the charge separation happen by electrochemical processes).



              For the sake of the argument it is only important that there is a mechanism which separates the charges in a way that going from terminal 1 (connected to chamber 1) to terminal 2 (connected to chamber2)), a charge of one $C$ will get the Energy of $6 J$.



              Since the electric field is generated only from this separated charges, it is a conservative field. Moving in this field, a particle can't get energy from one complete roundtrip. Connecting both terminals of the battery, a testcharge of $ 1 C$ will be brought from one terminal to the other terminal by this electric field, gaining $6 J$ of Energy. It would require exactly this $6 J$ again to move it from the second terminal, through the battery, back to terminal 1.



              In this case Kirchhoffs Voltage-Law is perfectly valid, because it only makes statements about the Work that is done by the electric field (There are other cases with non-conservative electric fields where the law is still valid, essentially because one looks only at a part of the electric field and makes certain further assumptions about it in those cases, but that should not matter here).



              Your second observation is however not wrong: You mention the chemical potential of the battery, which is responsible for the charge separation. This chemical potential moves (by a nonconservative force) a charge from terminal 2 back to terminal 1, against the electric field in the battery. By that it ensures that the battery maintains its terminal voltage of $6 V$. It however isn't said that it will move exactly the electron that already completed one roundtrip.



              Let's assume that the chemical potential would always bring the same electron that completed one roundtrip back to terminal 1. Then this electron would effectively see a forcefield which is a combination of the electric field (conservative) and the nonconservative "force"-Field by the electrochemics of the battery. This would all in all (as you observed) be a nonconservative field, and an electron would gain energy for each roundtrip. Energy conservation doesn't apply here, as chemical energy is transformed to kinetic energy of the electron.



              However, Kirchhoff's Law still holds here, because energy conservation and Kirchhoff's Law are two things.






              share|cite|improve this answer










              $endgroup$














              • $begingroup$
                "Connecting both terminals of the battery, a testcharge of 1C will be brought from one terminal to the other terminal by this electric field, gaining 6J of Energy. It would require exactly this 6J again to move it from the second terminal, through the battery, back to terminal 1" So then if I then add a resistor it takes more energy to go around the circuit than is given by the battery since it still takes 6J to move through the battery thus disproving Kirchoff's law.
                $endgroup$
                – John
                Sep 12 at 13:22











              • $begingroup$
                Again: Kirchhoff's Law doesn't make a statement about the energy a testcharge gets while completing one roundtrip. It makes (in the electrostatic case) a statement about that portion of the energy which is generated by the electric field acting on the testcharge. Neither the resistance (nonconservative nonelectric "friction"-force acting on the charge, sucking out energy) nor the chemical potential (nonconservative nonelectric "chemical"-force acting on the charge, bringing in energy) do play a role here.
                $endgroup$
                – Quantumwhisp
                Sep 12 at 13:39













              0















              0











              0







              $begingroup$

              In the particular case you describe, the electric field is generated by the separated charges in the battery. A battery roughly consists of 2 chambers, one with negatively charged matter, one with positively charged one (there are different ways to achieve this setup, most of them make the charge separation happen by electrochemical processes).



              For the sake of the argument it is only important that there is a mechanism which separates the charges in a way that going from terminal 1 (connected to chamber 1) to terminal 2 (connected to chamber2)), a charge of one $C$ will get the Energy of $6 J$.



              Since the electric field is generated only from this separated charges, it is a conservative field. Moving in this field, a particle can't get energy from one complete roundtrip. Connecting both terminals of the battery, a testcharge of $ 1 C$ will be brought from one terminal to the other terminal by this electric field, gaining $6 J$ of Energy. It would require exactly this $6 J$ again to move it from the second terminal, through the battery, back to terminal 1.



              In this case Kirchhoffs Voltage-Law is perfectly valid, because it only makes statements about the Work that is done by the electric field (There are other cases with non-conservative electric fields where the law is still valid, essentially because one looks only at a part of the electric field and makes certain further assumptions about it in those cases, but that should not matter here).



              Your second observation is however not wrong: You mention the chemical potential of the battery, which is responsible for the charge separation. This chemical potential moves (by a nonconservative force) a charge from terminal 2 back to terminal 1, against the electric field in the battery. By that it ensures that the battery maintains its terminal voltage of $6 V$. It however isn't said that it will move exactly the electron that already completed one roundtrip.



              Let's assume that the chemical potential would always bring the same electron that completed one roundtrip back to terminal 1. Then this electron would effectively see a forcefield which is a combination of the electric field (conservative) and the nonconservative "force"-Field by the electrochemics of the battery. This would all in all (as you observed) be a nonconservative field, and an electron would gain energy for each roundtrip. Energy conservation doesn't apply here, as chemical energy is transformed to kinetic energy of the electron.



              However, Kirchhoff's Law still holds here, because energy conservation and Kirchhoff's Law are two things.






              share|cite|improve this answer










              $endgroup$



              In the particular case you describe, the electric field is generated by the separated charges in the battery. A battery roughly consists of 2 chambers, one with negatively charged matter, one with positively charged one (there are different ways to achieve this setup, most of them make the charge separation happen by electrochemical processes).



              For the sake of the argument it is only important that there is a mechanism which separates the charges in a way that going from terminal 1 (connected to chamber 1) to terminal 2 (connected to chamber2)), a charge of one $C$ will get the Energy of $6 J$.



              Since the electric field is generated only from this separated charges, it is a conservative field. Moving in this field, a particle can't get energy from one complete roundtrip. Connecting both terminals of the battery, a testcharge of $ 1 C$ will be brought from one terminal to the other terminal by this electric field, gaining $6 J$ of Energy. It would require exactly this $6 J$ again to move it from the second terminal, through the battery, back to terminal 1.



              In this case Kirchhoffs Voltage-Law is perfectly valid, because it only makes statements about the Work that is done by the electric field (There are other cases with non-conservative electric fields where the law is still valid, essentially because one looks only at a part of the electric field and makes certain further assumptions about it in those cases, but that should not matter here).



              Your second observation is however not wrong: You mention the chemical potential of the battery, which is responsible for the charge separation. This chemical potential moves (by a nonconservative force) a charge from terminal 2 back to terminal 1, against the electric field in the battery. By that it ensures that the battery maintains its terminal voltage of $6 V$. It however isn't said that it will move exactly the electron that already completed one roundtrip.



              Let's assume that the chemical potential would always bring the same electron that completed one roundtrip back to terminal 1. Then this electron would effectively see a forcefield which is a combination of the electric field (conservative) and the nonconservative "force"-Field by the electrochemics of the battery. This would all in all (as you observed) be a nonconservative field, and an electron would gain energy for each roundtrip. Energy conservation doesn't apply here, as chemical energy is transformed to kinetic energy of the electron.



              However, Kirchhoff's Law still holds here, because energy conservation and Kirchhoff's Law are two things.







              share|cite|improve this answer













              share|cite|improve this answer




              share|cite|improve this answer










              answered Sep 11 at 15:22









              QuantumwhispQuantumwhisp

              4,3401 gold badge7 silver badges31 bronze badges




              4,3401 gold badge7 silver badges31 bronze badges














              • $begingroup$
                "Connecting both terminals of the battery, a testcharge of 1C will be brought from one terminal to the other terminal by this electric field, gaining 6J of Energy. It would require exactly this 6J again to move it from the second terminal, through the battery, back to terminal 1" So then if I then add a resistor it takes more energy to go around the circuit than is given by the battery since it still takes 6J to move through the battery thus disproving Kirchoff's law.
                $endgroup$
                – John
                Sep 12 at 13:22











              • $begingroup$
                Again: Kirchhoff's Law doesn't make a statement about the energy a testcharge gets while completing one roundtrip. It makes (in the electrostatic case) a statement about that portion of the energy which is generated by the electric field acting on the testcharge. Neither the resistance (nonconservative nonelectric "friction"-force acting on the charge, sucking out energy) nor the chemical potential (nonconservative nonelectric "chemical"-force acting on the charge, bringing in energy) do play a role here.
                $endgroup$
                – Quantumwhisp
                Sep 12 at 13:39
















              • $begingroup$
                "Connecting both terminals of the battery, a testcharge of 1C will be brought from one terminal to the other terminal by this electric field, gaining 6J of Energy. It would require exactly this 6J again to move it from the second terminal, through the battery, back to terminal 1" So then if I then add a resistor it takes more energy to go around the circuit than is given by the battery since it still takes 6J to move through the battery thus disproving Kirchoff's law.
                $endgroup$
                – John
                Sep 12 at 13:22











              • $begingroup$
                Again: Kirchhoff's Law doesn't make a statement about the energy a testcharge gets while completing one roundtrip. It makes (in the electrostatic case) a statement about that portion of the energy which is generated by the electric field acting on the testcharge. Neither the resistance (nonconservative nonelectric "friction"-force acting on the charge, sucking out energy) nor the chemical potential (nonconservative nonelectric "chemical"-force acting on the charge, bringing in energy) do play a role here.
                $endgroup$
                – Quantumwhisp
                Sep 12 at 13:39















              $begingroup$
              "Connecting both terminals of the battery, a testcharge of 1C will be brought from one terminal to the other terminal by this electric field, gaining 6J of Energy. It would require exactly this 6J again to move it from the second terminal, through the battery, back to terminal 1" So then if I then add a resistor it takes more energy to go around the circuit than is given by the battery since it still takes 6J to move through the battery thus disproving Kirchoff's law.
              $endgroup$
              – John
              Sep 12 at 13:22





              $begingroup$
              "Connecting both terminals of the battery, a testcharge of 1C will be brought from one terminal to the other terminal by this electric field, gaining 6J of Energy. It would require exactly this 6J again to move it from the second terminal, through the battery, back to terminal 1" So then if I then add a resistor it takes more energy to go around the circuit than is given by the battery since it still takes 6J to move through the battery thus disproving Kirchoff's law.
              $endgroup$
              – John
              Sep 12 at 13:22













              $begingroup$
              Again: Kirchhoff's Law doesn't make a statement about the energy a testcharge gets while completing one roundtrip. It makes (in the electrostatic case) a statement about that portion of the energy which is generated by the electric field acting on the testcharge. Neither the resistance (nonconservative nonelectric "friction"-force acting on the charge, sucking out energy) nor the chemical potential (nonconservative nonelectric "chemical"-force acting on the charge, bringing in energy) do play a role here.
              $endgroup$
              – Quantumwhisp
              Sep 12 at 13:39




              $begingroup$
              Again: Kirchhoff's Law doesn't make a statement about the energy a testcharge gets while completing one roundtrip. It makes (in the electrostatic case) a statement about that portion of the energy which is generated by the electric field acting on the testcharge. Neither the resistance (nonconservative nonelectric "friction"-force acting on the charge, sucking out energy) nor the chemical potential (nonconservative nonelectric "chemical"-force acting on the charge, bringing in energy) do play a role here.
              $endgroup$
              – Quantumwhisp
              Sep 12 at 13:39











              0

















              $begingroup$


              If we consider a single electron going around a closed loop, with a battery giving an EMF of 6 V, why does the electron have to lose the energy in the loop?




              It is important to make sure we know which energy we are talking about. In real wires which pose dissipative resistance to motion of mobile charge carriers, the electron, as it moves along the wire, releases some energy into the wire. This energy comes (usually) from electromagnetic field near the electron, not from the electron's own store of energy; if electric current is constant in time, as in stationary DC circuit, the electron itself does not lose any kinetic or rest energy; it just funnels EM energy around it into the conductor where it becomes internal energy (the conductor heats up).



              In situations where the EM field in conductor is mainly due to spatial variation of electric potential $varphi$ (such as in a DC circuit with a battery or charged capacitor), we can restate the above and say the released energy is due to loss of potential energy of the electron $qvarphi$ as it moves from lower potential place to higher potential place. The conservative electric field with potential $varphi$ is maintained in the circuit by the battery or capacitor.



              But there are other situations where the EM field maintaining the current is not due to spatial variation of electric potential, but due to induced electric field.



              Induced electric field has the same effect on mobile charges and conductor as conservative electric field: it may initiate and maintain electric current, while heat is being released into the conductor. This electric field cannot be described by any electric potential $varphi$.



              The electric potential $varphi$ can always be defined based on the above conservative field, but in cases where the whole electric field is equal to induced field, the potential will be the same in the whole circuit. Because $varphi$ is the same everywhere now, the electron does not lose any potential energy as it goes around the circuit. It however still releases heat, so energy of EM field is still being transformed into heat. Again, the electron is just a device to release the energy of the EM field into the conductor, but not the loser of energy.



              A conductor with zero resistance will not allow the EM energy to change into heat. So if there is electric field in such conductor, the mobile charge carriers will be accelerated, the electric current will increase and the EM energy will be transformed partly into magnetic energy of the circuit (most of it), partly into kinetic energy of the mobile charge carriers (a very minor part).




              If the circuit had zero resistance, wouldn't the electron just gain more and more energy as it loops around the circuit again and again, thus breaking Kirchhoff's voltage law and failing to conserve of energy, since the chemical potential of the battery gives the energy?




              Yes, it would gain kinetic energy, but not potential energy. Potential energy would increase when passing from one terminal of the battery to another, but would decrease by the same amount when traversing the rest of the circuit.






              share|cite|improve this answer










              $endgroup$



















                0

















                $begingroup$


                If we consider a single electron going around a closed loop, with a battery giving an EMF of 6 V, why does the electron have to lose the energy in the loop?




                It is important to make sure we know which energy we are talking about. In real wires which pose dissipative resistance to motion of mobile charge carriers, the electron, as it moves along the wire, releases some energy into the wire. This energy comes (usually) from electromagnetic field near the electron, not from the electron's own store of energy; if electric current is constant in time, as in stationary DC circuit, the electron itself does not lose any kinetic or rest energy; it just funnels EM energy around it into the conductor where it becomes internal energy (the conductor heats up).



                In situations where the EM field in conductor is mainly due to spatial variation of electric potential $varphi$ (such as in a DC circuit with a battery or charged capacitor), we can restate the above and say the released energy is due to loss of potential energy of the electron $qvarphi$ as it moves from lower potential place to higher potential place. The conservative electric field with potential $varphi$ is maintained in the circuit by the battery or capacitor.



                But there are other situations where the EM field maintaining the current is not due to spatial variation of electric potential, but due to induced electric field.



                Induced electric field has the same effect on mobile charges and conductor as conservative electric field: it may initiate and maintain electric current, while heat is being released into the conductor. This electric field cannot be described by any electric potential $varphi$.



                The electric potential $varphi$ can always be defined based on the above conservative field, but in cases where the whole electric field is equal to induced field, the potential will be the same in the whole circuit. Because $varphi$ is the same everywhere now, the electron does not lose any potential energy as it goes around the circuit. It however still releases heat, so energy of EM field is still being transformed into heat. Again, the electron is just a device to release the energy of the EM field into the conductor, but not the loser of energy.



                A conductor with zero resistance will not allow the EM energy to change into heat. So if there is electric field in such conductor, the mobile charge carriers will be accelerated, the electric current will increase and the EM energy will be transformed partly into magnetic energy of the circuit (most of it), partly into kinetic energy of the mobile charge carriers (a very minor part).




                If the circuit had zero resistance, wouldn't the electron just gain more and more energy as it loops around the circuit again and again, thus breaking Kirchhoff's voltage law and failing to conserve of energy, since the chemical potential of the battery gives the energy?




                Yes, it would gain kinetic energy, but not potential energy. Potential energy would increase when passing from one terminal of the battery to another, but would decrease by the same amount when traversing the rest of the circuit.






                share|cite|improve this answer










                $endgroup$

















                  0















                  0











                  0







                  $begingroup$


                  If we consider a single electron going around a closed loop, with a battery giving an EMF of 6 V, why does the electron have to lose the energy in the loop?




                  It is important to make sure we know which energy we are talking about. In real wires which pose dissipative resistance to motion of mobile charge carriers, the electron, as it moves along the wire, releases some energy into the wire. This energy comes (usually) from electromagnetic field near the electron, not from the electron's own store of energy; if electric current is constant in time, as in stationary DC circuit, the electron itself does not lose any kinetic or rest energy; it just funnels EM energy around it into the conductor where it becomes internal energy (the conductor heats up).



                  In situations where the EM field in conductor is mainly due to spatial variation of electric potential $varphi$ (such as in a DC circuit with a battery or charged capacitor), we can restate the above and say the released energy is due to loss of potential energy of the electron $qvarphi$ as it moves from lower potential place to higher potential place. The conservative electric field with potential $varphi$ is maintained in the circuit by the battery or capacitor.



                  But there are other situations where the EM field maintaining the current is not due to spatial variation of electric potential, but due to induced electric field.



                  Induced electric field has the same effect on mobile charges and conductor as conservative electric field: it may initiate and maintain electric current, while heat is being released into the conductor. This electric field cannot be described by any electric potential $varphi$.



                  The electric potential $varphi$ can always be defined based on the above conservative field, but in cases where the whole electric field is equal to induced field, the potential will be the same in the whole circuit. Because $varphi$ is the same everywhere now, the electron does not lose any potential energy as it goes around the circuit. It however still releases heat, so energy of EM field is still being transformed into heat. Again, the electron is just a device to release the energy of the EM field into the conductor, but not the loser of energy.



                  A conductor with zero resistance will not allow the EM energy to change into heat. So if there is electric field in such conductor, the mobile charge carriers will be accelerated, the electric current will increase and the EM energy will be transformed partly into magnetic energy of the circuit (most of it), partly into kinetic energy of the mobile charge carriers (a very minor part).




                  If the circuit had zero resistance, wouldn't the electron just gain more and more energy as it loops around the circuit again and again, thus breaking Kirchhoff's voltage law and failing to conserve of energy, since the chemical potential of the battery gives the energy?




                  Yes, it would gain kinetic energy, but not potential energy. Potential energy would increase when passing from one terminal of the battery to another, but would decrease by the same amount when traversing the rest of the circuit.






                  share|cite|improve this answer










                  $endgroup$




                  If we consider a single electron going around a closed loop, with a battery giving an EMF of 6 V, why does the electron have to lose the energy in the loop?




                  It is important to make sure we know which energy we are talking about. In real wires which pose dissipative resistance to motion of mobile charge carriers, the electron, as it moves along the wire, releases some energy into the wire. This energy comes (usually) from electromagnetic field near the electron, not from the electron's own store of energy; if electric current is constant in time, as in stationary DC circuit, the electron itself does not lose any kinetic or rest energy; it just funnels EM energy around it into the conductor where it becomes internal energy (the conductor heats up).



                  In situations where the EM field in conductor is mainly due to spatial variation of electric potential $varphi$ (such as in a DC circuit with a battery or charged capacitor), we can restate the above and say the released energy is due to loss of potential energy of the electron $qvarphi$ as it moves from lower potential place to higher potential place. The conservative electric field with potential $varphi$ is maintained in the circuit by the battery or capacitor.



                  But there are other situations where the EM field maintaining the current is not due to spatial variation of electric potential, but due to induced electric field.



                  Induced electric field has the same effect on mobile charges and conductor as conservative electric field: it may initiate and maintain electric current, while heat is being released into the conductor. This electric field cannot be described by any electric potential $varphi$.



                  The electric potential $varphi$ can always be defined based on the above conservative field, but in cases where the whole electric field is equal to induced field, the potential will be the same in the whole circuit. Because $varphi$ is the same everywhere now, the electron does not lose any potential energy as it goes around the circuit. It however still releases heat, so energy of EM field is still being transformed into heat. Again, the electron is just a device to release the energy of the EM field into the conductor, but not the loser of energy.



                  A conductor with zero resistance will not allow the EM energy to change into heat. So if there is electric field in such conductor, the mobile charge carriers will be accelerated, the electric current will increase and the EM energy will be transformed partly into magnetic energy of the circuit (most of it), partly into kinetic energy of the mobile charge carriers (a very minor part).




                  If the circuit had zero resistance, wouldn't the electron just gain more and more energy as it loops around the circuit again and again, thus breaking Kirchhoff's voltage law and failing to conserve of energy, since the chemical potential of the battery gives the energy?




                  Yes, it would gain kinetic energy, but not potential energy. Potential energy would increase when passing from one terminal of the battery to another, but would decrease by the same amount when traversing the rest of the circuit.







                  share|cite|improve this answer













                  share|cite|improve this answer




                  share|cite|improve this answer










                  answered Sep 12 at 19:52









                  Ján LalinskýJán Lalinský

                  18.9k15 silver badges46 bronze badges




                  18.9k15 silver badges46 bronze badges































                      draft saved

                      draft discarded















































                      Thanks for contributing an answer to Physics Stack Exchange!


                      • Please be sure to answer the question. Provide details and share your research!

                      But avoid


                      • Asking for help, clarification, or responding to other answers.

                      • Making statements based on opinion; back them up with references or personal experience.

                      Use MathJax to format equations. MathJax reference.


                      To learn more, see our tips on writing great answers.




                      draft saved


                      draft discarded














                      StackExchange.ready(
                      function ()
                      StackExchange.openid.initPostLogin('.new-post-login', 'https%3a%2f%2fphysics.stackexchange.com%2fquestions%2f502286%2fwhy-is-kirchhoffs-voltage-law-true-in-a-dc-circuit%23new-answer', 'question_page');

                      );

                      Post as a guest















                      Required, but never shown





















































                      Required, but never shown














                      Required, but never shown












                      Required, but never shown







                      Required, but never shown

































                      Required, but never shown














                      Required, but never shown












                      Required, but never shown







                      Required, but never shown









                      Popular posts from this blog

                      Distance measures on a map of a game The 2019 Stack Overflow Developer Survey Results Are Inmin distance in a graphShortest distance path on contour plotHow to plot a tilted map?Finding points outside of a diskDelaunay link distanceAnnulus from GeoDisks: drawing a ring on a mapNegative Correlation DistanceFind distance along a path (GPS coordinates)Finding position at given distance in a GeoPathMathematics behind distance estimation using camera

                      How to get a smooth, uniform ParametricPlot of a 2D Region?How to plot a complicated Region?How to exclude a region from ParametricPlotHow discretize a region placing vertices on a specific non-uniform gridHow to transform a Plot or a ParametricPlot into a RegionHow can I get a smooth plot of a bounded region?Smooth ParametricPlot3D with RegionFunction?Smooth border of a region ParametricPlotSmooth region boundarySmooth region plot from list of pointsGet minimum y of a certain x in a region

                      Genealogie vun de Merowenger Vum Merowech bis zum Chilperich I. | Navigatiounsmenü