Does a feasible high thrust high specific impulse engine exist using current non space technology?What kind of engine does this Isp = 1600 refer to? Is it cubesat-friendly?Is it possible to get a spacecraft into earth orbit using Linear Eddy Current Braking on an orbital runway?
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Does a feasible high thrust high specific impulse engine exist using current non space technology?
What kind of engine does this Isp = 1600 refer to? Is it cubesat-friendly?Is it possible to get a spacecraft into earth orbit using Linear Eddy Current Braking on an orbital runway?
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What I mean is an engine whose thrust is on the order of tens to hundreds of Newtons with an ISP "well" above that of chemical engines. I don't require this engine to be space ready - if it has to plug into a mega watt generator and only works on the ground at the moment that's fine - but it must be buildable with current technology. That means that fusion power or antimatter is out. I'm ok with an engine that has been proposed but not built, or an engine that is low thrust but only because it has never been scaled up.
I do require the engine to at least have been peer reviewed and simulated in a high fidelity simulation.
So, doors such an engine concept exist?
advanced-propulsion
asked Sep 14 at 20:25
Michael StachowskyMichael Stachowsky
4,0571 gold badge9 silver badges23 bronze badges
$endgroup$
add a comment
|
$begingroup$
What I mean is an engine whose thrust is on the order of tens to hundreds of Newtons with an ISP "well" above that of chemical engines. I don't require this engine to be space ready - if it has to plug into a mega watt generator and only works on the ground at the moment that's fine - but it must be buildable with current technology. That means that fusion power or antimatter is out. I'm ok with an engine that has been proposed but not built, or an engine that is low thrust but only because it has never been scaled up.
I do require the engine to at least have been peer reviewed and simulated in a high fidelity simulation.
So, doors such an engine concept exist?
advanced-propulsion
asked Sep 14 at 20:25
Michael StachowskyMichael Stachowsky
4,0571 gold badge9 silver badges23 bronze badges
$endgroup$
1
$begingroup$
I thought I had one: What kind of engine does this Isp = 1600 refer to? Is it cubesat-friendly? but the thrust turns out to be a hundred *milli-newtons."
$endgroup$
– uhoh
Sep 14 at 23:30
1
$begingroup$
A cluster of any ion engine we used so far will do - they offer about 50N from your 1 MW generator.
$endgroup$
– asdfex
Sep 15 at 11:20
$begingroup$
It doesn't really make sense to talk about Newtons here. Cluster enough engines of any type and you'll hit that. Perhaps thrust-to-mass ratio instead?
$endgroup$
– TLW
Sep 15 at 17:17
add a comment
|
$begingroup$
What I mean is an engine whose thrust is on the order of tens to hundreds of Newtons with an ISP "well" above that of chemical engines. I don't require this engine to be space ready - if it has to plug into a mega watt generator and only works on the ground at the moment that's fine - but it must be buildable with current technology. That means that fusion power or antimatter is out. I'm ok with an engine that has been proposed but not built, or an engine that is low thrust but only because it has never been scaled up.
I do require the engine to at least have been peer reviewed and simulated in a high fidelity simulation.
So, doors such an engine concept exist?
advanced-propulsion
asked Sep 14 at 20:25
Michael StachowskyMichael Stachowsky
4,0571 gold badge9 silver badges23 bronze badges
$endgroup$
What I mean is an engine whose thrust is on the order of tens to hundreds of Newtons with an ISP "well" above that of chemical engines. I don't require this engine to be space ready - if it has to plug into a mega watt generator and only works on the ground at the moment that's fine - but it must be buildable with current technology. That means that fusion power or antimatter is out. I'm ok with an engine that has been proposed but not built, or an engine that is low thrust but only because it has never been scaled up.
I do require the engine to at least have been peer reviewed and simulated in a high fidelity simulation.
So, doors such an engine concept exist?
advanced-propulsion
advanced-propulsion
asked Sep 14 at 20:25
Michael StachowskyMichael Stachowsky
4,0571 gold badge9 silver badges23 bronze badges
asked Sep 14 at 20:25
Michael StachowskyMichael Stachowsky
4,0571 gold badge9 silver badges23 bronze badges
asked Sep 14 at 20:25
Michael StachowskyMichael Stachowsky
4,0571 gold badge9 silver badges23 bronze badges
asked Sep 14 at 20:25
Michael StachowskyMichael Stachowsky
4,0571 gold badge9 silver badges23 bronze badges
asked Sep 14 at 20:25
Michael StachowskyMichael Stachowsky
4,0571 gold badge9 silver badges23 bronze badges
4,0571 gold badge9 silver badges23 bronze badges
1
$begingroup$
I thought I had one: What kind of engine does this Isp = 1600 refer to? Is it cubesat-friendly? but the thrust turns out to be a hundred *milli-newtons."
$endgroup$
– uhoh
Sep 14 at 23:30
1
$begingroup$
A cluster of any ion engine we used so far will do - they offer about 50N from your 1 MW generator.
$endgroup$
– asdfex
Sep 15 at 11:20
$begingroup$
It doesn't really make sense to talk about Newtons here. Cluster enough engines of any type and you'll hit that. Perhaps thrust-to-mass ratio instead?
$endgroup$
– TLW
Sep 15 at 17:17
add a comment
|
1
$begingroup$
I thought I had one: What kind of engine does this Isp = 1600 refer to? Is it cubesat-friendly? but the thrust turns out to be a hundred *milli-newtons."
$endgroup$
– uhoh
Sep 14 at 23:30
1
$begingroup$
A cluster of any ion engine we used so far will do - they offer about 50N from your 1 MW generator.
$endgroup$
– asdfex
Sep 15 at 11:20
$begingroup$
It doesn't really make sense to talk about Newtons here. Cluster enough engines of any type and you'll hit that. Perhaps thrust-to-mass ratio instead?
$endgroup$
– TLW
Sep 15 at 17:17
1
1
$begingroup$
I thought I had one: What kind of engine does this Isp = 1600 refer to? Is it cubesat-friendly? but the thrust turns out to be a hundred *milli-newtons."
$endgroup$
– uhoh
Sep 14 at 23:30
$begingroup$
I thought I had one: What kind of engine does this Isp = 1600 refer to? Is it cubesat-friendly? but the thrust turns out to be a hundred *milli-newtons."
$endgroup$
– uhoh
Sep 14 at 23:30
1
1
$begingroup$
A cluster of any ion engine we used so far will do - they offer about 50N from your 1 MW generator.
$endgroup$
– asdfex
Sep 15 at 11:20
$begingroup$
A cluster of any ion engine we used so far will do - they offer about 50N from your 1 MW generator.
$endgroup$
– asdfex
Sep 15 at 11:20
$begingroup$
It doesn't really make sense to talk about Newtons here. Cluster enough engines of any type and you'll hit that. Perhaps thrust-to-mass ratio instead?
$endgroup$
– TLW
Sep 15 at 17:17
$begingroup$
It doesn't really make sense to talk about Newtons here. Cluster enough engines of any type and you'll hit that. Perhaps thrust-to-mass ratio instead?
$endgroup$
– TLW
Sep 15 at 17:17
add a comment
|
2 Answers
2
active
oldest
votes
$begingroup$
How about NERVA?
NERVA (Nuclear Engine for Rocket Vehicle Application) was a nuclear-thermal engine. A reactor heated hydrogen propellant and exhausted it out the nozzle.
The engine was extensively and successfully ground tested.
Thrust ~ 250 kN
ISP ~ 840
(You didn't mention political considerations or thrust-to-weight ratio)
answered Sep 14 at 20:45
Organic MarbleOrganic Marble
88.5k4 gold badges271 silver badges377 bronze badges
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
Nah, the T/W of NERVA is fine while not amazing. This would also fall under "low thrust but only because it has never been scaled up", since there are still considerable scaling gains.
$endgroup$
– Hohmannfan
Sep 14 at 21:03
$begingroup$
I can live with NERVA, yes. I was hoping for something more modern/politically possible but that wasn't really specified in the question
$endgroup$
– Michael Stachowsky
Sep 14 at 21:10
$begingroup$
If you need a data point for how such an engine may scale down, the smaller rd-0410 was also extensively tested.
$endgroup$
– Hohmannfan
Sep 14 at 21:19
$begingroup$
@MichaelStachowsky Project Timberwind was the next generation nuclear-thermal -- no more political feasible but slightly more modern.
$endgroup$
– Russell Borogove
Sep 14 at 22:29
10
$begingroup$
I'm coining a new phrase and claiming ownership: "thrust-to-dose ratio".
$endgroup$
– uhoh
Sep 14 at 23:31
add a comment
|
$begingroup$
In general, thermal rockets can in theory have very good $I_SP$ (around 1000s), and provide high thrust.
Unlike chemical rockets, which by definition produce heavy exhaust gasses like $CO_2$, $CO$ or $H_2O$, a thermal rocket can pick any propellant. That would mean it's possible to eject pure hydrogen gas (which in the hotter cases will start to disassociate into mono-atomic hydrogen). The advantage of this is that lighter gasses have higher exhaust velocities at equal temperatures. A thermal rocket is limited by what temperature the engine can stand.
But eliminating the chemical reaction leaves the engine without an energy source for the heat. Some options:
- Using a reactor, Organic Marble's example.
- Concentrated solar power.
- Lasers from Earth.
On the ground, we could hook it up to the grid.
answered Sep 14 at 21:17
HohmannfanHohmannfan
15.6k1 gold badge52 silver badges111 bronze badges
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
factoid: lighter atoms (with +1 charge) also have higher Isp at a given acceleration voltage ($sim m^-1/2$)
$endgroup$
– uhoh
Sep 14 at 23:34
add a comment
|
Your Answer
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2 Answers
2
active
oldest
votes
2 Answers
2
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
$begingroup$
How about NERVA?
NERVA (Nuclear Engine for Rocket Vehicle Application) was a nuclear-thermal engine. A reactor heated hydrogen propellant and exhausted it out the nozzle.
The engine was extensively and successfully ground tested.
Thrust ~ 250 kN
ISP ~ 840
(You didn't mention political considerations or thrust-to-weight ratio)
answered Sep 14 at 20:45
Organic MarbleOrganic Marble
88.5k4 gold badges271 silver badges377 bronze badges
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
Nah, the T/W of NERVA is fine while not amazing. This would also fall under "low thrust but only because it has never been scaled up", since there are still considerable scaling gains.
$endgroup$
– Hohmannfan
Sep 14 at 21:03
$begingroup$
I can live with NERVA, yes. I was hoping for something more modern/politically possible but that wasn't really specified in the question
$endgroup$
– Michael Stachowsky
Sep 14 at 21:10
$begingroup$
If you need a data point for how such an engine may scale down, the smaller rd-0410 was also extensively tested.
$endgroup$
– Hohmannfan
Sep 14 at 21:19
$begingroup$
@MichaelStachowsky Project Timberwind was the next generation nuclear-thermal -- no more political feasible but slightly more modern.
$endgroup$
– Russell Borogove
Sep 14 at 22:29
10
$begingroup$
I'm coining a new phrase and claiming ownership: "thrust-to-dose ratio".
$endgroup$
– uhoh
Sep 14 at 23:31
add a comment
|
$begingroup$
How about NERVA?
NERVA (Nuclear Engine for Rocket Vehicle Application) was a nuclear-thermal engine. A reactor heated hydrogen propellant and exhausted it out the nozzle.
The engine was extensively and successfully ground tested.
Thrust ~ 250 kN
ISP ~ 840
(You didn't mention political considerations or thrust-to-weight ratio)
answered Sep 14 at 20:45
Organic MarbleOrganic Marble
88.5k4 gold badges271 silver badges377 bronze badges
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
Nah, the T/W of NERVA is fine while not amazing. This would also fall under "low thrust but only because it has never been scaled up", since there are still considerable scaling gains.
$endgroup$
– Hohmannfan
Sep 14 at 21:03
$begingroup$
I can live with NERVA, yes. I was hoping for something more modern/politically possible but that wasn't really specified in the question
$endgroup$
– Michael Stachowsky
Sep 14 at 21:10
$begingroup$
If you need a data point for how such an engine may scale down, the smaller rd-0410 was also extensively tested.
$endgroup$
– Hohmannfan
Sep 14 at 21:19
$begingroup$
@MichaelStachowsky Project Timberwind was the next generation nuclear-thermal -- no more political feasible but slightly more modern.
$endgroup$
– Russell Borogove
Sep 14 at 22:29
10
$begingroup$
I'm coining a new phrase and claiming ownership: "thrust-to-dose ratio".
$endgroup$
– uhoh
Sep 14 at 23:31
add a comment
|
$begingroup$
How about NERVA?
NERVA (Nuclear Engine for Rocket Vehicle Application) was a nuclear-thermal engine. A reactor heated hydrogen propellant and exhausted it out the nozzle.
The engine was extensively and successfully ground tested.
Thrust ~ 250 kN
ISP ~ 840
(You didn't mention political considerations or thrust-to-weight ratio)
answered Sep 14 at 20:45
Organic MarbleOrganic Marble
88.5k4 gold badges271 silver badges377 bronze badges
$endgroup$
How about NERVA?
NERVA (Nuclear Engine for Rocket Vehicle Application) was a nuclear-thermal engine. A reactor heated hydrogen propellant and exhausted it out the nozzle.
The engine was extensively and successfully ground tested.
Thrust ~ 250 kN
ISP ~ 840
(You didn't mention political considerations or thrust-to-weight ratio)
answered Sep 14 at 20:45
Organic MarbleOrganic Marble
88.5k4 gold badges271 silver badges377 bronze badges
edited Sep 14 at 20:55
answered Sep 14 at 20:45
Organic MarbleOrganic Marble
88.5k4 gold badges271 silver badges377 bronze badges
answered Sep 14 at 20:45
Organic MarbleOrganic Marble
88.5k4 gold badges271 silver badges377 bronze badges
answered Sep 14 at 20:45
Organic MarbleOrganic Marble
88.5k4 gold badges271 silver badges377 bronze badges
88.5k4 gold badges271 silver badges377 bronze badges
$begingroup$
Nah, the T/W of NERVA is fine while not amazing. This would also fall under "low thrust but only because it has never been scaled up", since there are still considerable scaling gains.
$endgroup$
– Hohmannfan
Sep 14 at 21:03
$begingroup$
I can live with NERVA, yes. I was hoping for something more modern/politically possible but that wasn't really specified in the question
$endgroup$
– Michael Stachowsky
Sep 14 at 21:10
$begingroup$
If you need a data point for how such an engine may scale down, the smaller rd-0410 was also extensively tested.
$endgroup$
– Hohmannfan
Sep 14 at 21:19
$begingroup$
@MichaelStachowsky Project Timberwind was the next generation nuclear-thermal -- no more political feasible but slightly more modern.
$endgroup$
– Russell Borogove
Sep 14 at 22:29
10
$begingroup$
I'm coining a new phrase and claiming ownership: "thrust-to-dose ratio".
$endgroup$
– uhoh
Sep 14 at 23:31
add a comment
|
$begingroup$
Nah, the T/W of NERVA is fine while not amazing. This would also fall under "low thrust but only because it has never been scaled up", since there are still considerable scaling gains.
$endgroup$
– Hohmannfan
Sep 14 at 21:03
$begingroup$
I can live with NERVA, yes. I was hoping for something more modern/politically possible but that wasn't really specified in the question
$endgroup$
– Michael Stachowsky
Sep 14 at 21:10
$begingroup$
If you need a data point for how such an engine may scale down, the smaller rd-0410 was also extensively tested.
$endgroup$
– Hohmannfan
Sep 14 at 21:19
$begingroup$
@MichaelStachowsky Project Timberwind was the next generation nuclear-thermal -- no more political feasible but slightly more modern.
$endgroup$
– Russell Borogove
Sep 14 at 22:29
10
$begingroup$
I'm coining a new phrase and claiming ownership: "thrust-to-dose ratio".
$endgroup$
– uhoh
Sep 14 at 23:31
$begingroup$
Nah, the T/W of NERVA is fine while not amazing. This would also fall under "low thrust but only because it has never been scaled up", since there are still considerable scaling gains.
$endgroup$
– Hohmannfan
Sep 14 at 21:03
$begingroup$
Nah, the T/W of NERVA is fine while not amazing. This would also fall under "low thrust but only because it has never been scaled up", since there are still considerable scaling gains.
$endgroup$
– Hohmannfan
Sep 14 at 21:03
$begingroup$
I can live with NERVA, yes. I was hoping for something more modern/politically possible but that wasn't really specified in the question
$endgroup$
– Michael Stachowsky
Sep 14 at 21:10
$begingroup$
I can live with NERVA, yes. I was hoping for something more modern/politically possible but that wasn't really specified in the question
$endgroup$
– Michael Stachowsky
Sep 14 at 21:10
$begingroup$
If you need a data point for how such an engine may scale down, the smaller rd-0410 was also extensively tested.
$endgroup$
– Hohmannfan
Sep 14 at 21:19
$begingroup$
If you need a data point for how such an engine may scale down, the smaller rd-0410 was also extensively tested.
$endgroup$
– Hohmannfan
Sep 14 at 21:19
$begingroup$
@MichaelStachowsky Project Timberwind was the next generation nuclear-thermal -- no more political feasible but slightly more modern.
$endgroup$
– Russell Borogove
Sep 14 at 22:29
$begingroup$
@MichaelStachowsky Project Timberwind was the next generation nuclear-thermal -- no more political feasible but slightly more modern.
$endgroup$
– Russell Borogove
Sep 14 at 22:29
10
10
$begingroup$
I'm coining a new phrase and claiming ownership: "thrust-to-dose ratio".
$endgroup$
– uhoh
Sep 14 at 23:31
$begingroup$
I'm coining a new phrase and claiming ownership: "thrust-to-dose ratio".
$endgroup$
– uhoh
Sep 14 at 23:31
add a comment
|
$begingroup$
In general, thermal rockets can in theory have very good $I_SP$ (around 1000s), and provide high thrust.
Unlike chemical rockets, which by definition produce heavy exhaust gasses like $CO_2$, $CO$ or $H_2O$, a thermal rocket can pick any propellant. That would mean it's possible to eject pure hydrogen gas (which in the hotter cases will start to disassociate into mono-atomic hydrogen). The advantage of this is that lighter gasses have higher exhaust velocities at equal temperatures. A thermal rocket is limited by what temperature the engine can stand.
But eliminating the chemical reaction leaves the engine without an energy source for the heat. Some options:
- Using a reactor, Organic Marble's example.
- Concentrated solar power.
- Lasers from Earth.
On the ground, we could hook it up to the grid.
answered Sep 14 at 21:17
HohmannfanHohmannfan
15.6k1 gold badge52 silver badges111 bronze badges
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
factoid: lighter atoms (with +1 charge) also have higher Isp at a given acceleration voltage ($sim m^-1/2$)
$endgroup$
– uhoh
Sep 14 at 23:34
add a comment
|
$begingroup$
In general, thermal rockets can in theory have very good $I_SP$ (around 1000s), and provide high thrust.
Unlike chemical rockets, which by definition produce heavy exhaust gasses like $CO_2$, $CO$ or $H_2O$, a thermal rocket can pick any propellant. That would mean it's possible to eject pure hydrogen gas (which in the hotter cases will start to disassociate into mono-atomic hydrogen). The advantage of this is that lighter gasses have higher exhaust velocities at equal temperatures. A thermal rocket is limited by what temperature the engine can stand.
But eliminating the chemical reaction leaves the engine without an energy source for the heat. Some options:
- Using a reactor, Organic Marble's example.
- Concentrated solar power.
- Lasers from Earth.
On the ground, we could hook it up to the grid.
answered Sep 14 at 21:17
HohmannfanHohmannfan
15.6k1 gold badge52 silver badges111 bronze badges
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
factoid: lighter atoms (with +1 charge) also have higher Isp at a given acceleration voltage ($sim m^-1/2$)
$endgroup$
– uhoh
Sep 14 at 23:34
add a comment
|
$begingroup$
In general, thermal rockets can in theory have very good $I_SP$ (around 1000s), and provide high thrust.
Unlike chemical rockets, which by definition produce heavy exhaust gasses like $CO_2$, $CO$ or $H_2O$, a thermal rocket can pick any propellant. That would mean it's possible to eject pure hydrogen gas (which in the hotter cases will start to disassociate into mono-atomic hydrogen). The advantage of this is that lighter gasses have higher exhaust velocities at equal temperatures. A thermal rocket is limited by what temperature the engine can stand.
But eliminating the chemical reaction leaves the engine without an energy source for the heat. Some options:
- Using a reactor, Organic Marble's example.
- Concentrated solar power.
- Lasers from Earth.
On the ground, we could hook it up to the grid.
answered Sep 14 at 21:17
HohmannfanHohmannfan
15.6k1 gold badge52 silver badges111 bronze badges
$endgroup$
In general, thermal rockets can in theory have very good $I_SP$ (around 1000s), and provide high thrust.
Unlike chemical rockets, which by definition produce heavy exhaust gasses like $CO_2$, $CO$ or $H_2O$, a thermal rocket can pick any propellant. That would mean it's possible to eject pure hydrogen gas (which in the hotter cases will start to disassociate into mono-atomic hydrogen). The advantage of this is that lighter gasses have higher exhaust velocities at equal temperatures. A thermal rocket is limited by what temperature the engine can stand.
But eliminating the chemical reaction leaves the engine without an energy source for the heat. Some options:
- Using a reactor, Organic Marble's example.
- Concentrated solar power.
- Lasers from Earth.
On the ground, we could hook it up to the grid.
answered Sep 14 at 21:17
HohmannfanHohmannfan
15.6k1 gold badge52 silver badges111 bronze badges
answered Sep 14 at 21:17
HohmannfanHohmannfan
15.6k1 gold badge52 silver badges111 bronze badges
answered Sep 14 at 21:17
HohmannfanHohmannfan
15.6k1 gold badge52 silver badges111 bronze badges
answered Sep 14 at 21:17
HohmannfanHohmannfan
15.6k1 gold badge52 silver badges111 bronze badges
15.6k1 gold badge52 silver badges111 bronze badges
$begingroup$
factoid: lighter atoms (with +1 charge) also have higher Isp at a given acceleration voltage ($sim m^-1/2$)
$endgroup$
– uhoh
Sep 14 at 23:34
add a comment
|
$begingroup$
factoid: lighter atoms (with +1 charge) also have higher Isp at a given acceleration voltage ($sim m^-1/2$)
$endgroup$
– uhoh
Sep 14 at 23:34
$begingroup$
factoid: lighter atoms (with +1 charge) also have higher Isp at a given acceleration voltage ($sim m^-1/2$)
$endgroup$
– uhoh
Sep 14 at 23:34
$begingroup$
factoid: lighter atoms (with +1 charge) also have higher Isp at a given acceleration voltage ($sim m^-1/2$)
$endgroup$
– uhoh
Sep 14 at 23:34
add a comment
|
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1
$begingroup$
I thought I had one: What kind of engine does this Isp = 1600 refer to? Is it cubesat-friendly? but the thrust turns out to be a hundred *milli-newtons."
$endgroup$
– uhoh
Sep 14 at 23:30
1
$begingroup$
A cluster of any ion engine we used so far will do - they offer about 50N from your 1 MW generator.
$endgroup$
– asdfex
Sep 15 at 11:20
$begingroup$
It doesn't really make sense to talk about Newtons here. Cluster enough engines of any type and you'll hit that. Perhaps thrust-to-mass ratio instead?
$endgroup$
– TLW
Sep 15 at 17:17