Can we apply L'Hospital's rule where the derivative is not continuous? The 2019 Stack Overflow Developer Survey Results Are InResilient L'Hospital's rule questionIs this a valid use of l'Hospital's Rule? Can it be used recursively?Simple Derivation of Functional Equation Question (L'Hospital's Rule)L'Hôpital's rule and Difference QuotientsL'Hôpital's rule does not apply?!Fake proof for “differentiability implies continuous derivative”: reviewL'Hospital's rule helpCan a function be differentiable on an interval, but not continuously differentiable somewhere besides an oscillating discontinuity in the derivative?Compute the limit without L'Hospital's ruleProof of L'Hospital's Rule
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Can we apply L'Hospital's rule where the derivative is not continuous?
The 2019 Stack Overflow Developer Survey Results Are InResilient L'Hospital's rule questionIs this a valid use of l'Hospital's Rule? Can it be used recursively?Simple Derivation of Functional Equation Question (L'Hospital's Rule)L'Hôpital's rule and Difference QuotientsL'Hôpital's rule does not apply?!Fake proof for “differentiability implies continuous derivative”: reviewL'Hospital's rule helpCan a function be differentiable on an interval, but not continuously differentiable somewhere besides an oscillating discontinuity in the derivative?Compute the limit without L'Hospital's ruleProof of L'Hospital's Rule
$begingroup$
My doubt arises due to the following :
We know that the definition of the derivative of a function at a point $x=a$, if it is differentiable at $a$, is:
$$f'(a) = lim_h rightarrow 0 frac f(a+h) - f(a)h$$
Suppose that the function $f(x)$ is differentiable in a finite interval $[c,d]$ and $a in (c,d) $
So, we can apply L'Hospital's rule. On differentiating numerator and denominator with respect to $h$, we get:
$$f'(a) = lim_h rightarrow 0 frac f(a+h) - f(a)h = lim_h rightarrow 0 frac f'(a+h)1$$
Which implies that
$$f'(a) = lim_h rightarrow 0 f'(a+h)$$
Which means that the function $f'(x)$ is continuous at $x=a$
But this not necessarily true. A function may have a derivative everywhere but its derivative may not be continuous at some point. One of many counterexamples is:
$$f(x) = begincases 0 text ; if x=0 \ x^2 sin frac1x text; if x $neq$ 0 endcases$$
Whose derivative isn't continuous at $0$
So, is something wrong with what I have done ? Or is it necessary that for applying L'Hospital's rule, the function's derivative must be a continuous function?
If the latter is true, why does that condition appear in the proof for L'Hospital's rule ?
limits derivatives continuity
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
My doubt arises due to the following :
We know that the definition of the derivative of a function at a point $x=a$, if it is differentiable at $a$, is:
$$f'(a) = lim_h rightarrow 0 frac f(a+h) - f(a)h$$
Suppose that the function $f(x)$ is differentiable in a finite interval $[c,d]$ and $a in (c,d) $
So, we can apply L'Hospital's rule. On differentiating numerator and denominator with respect to $h$, we get:
$$f'(a) = lim_h rightarrow 0 frac f(a+h) - f(a)h = lim_h rightarrow 0 frac f'(a+h)1$$
Which implies that
$$f'(a) = lim_h rightarrow 0 f'(a+h)$$
Which means that the function $f'(x)$ is continuous at $x=a$
But this not necessarily true. A function may have a derivative everywhere but its derivative may not be continuous at some point. One of many counterexamples is:
$$f(x) = begincases 0 text ; if x=0 \ x^2 sin frac1x text; if x $neq$ 0 endcases$$
Whose derivative isn't continuous at $0$
So, is something wrong with what I have done ? Or is it necessary that for applying L'Hospital's rule, the function's derivative must be a continuous function?
If the latter is true, why does that condition appear in the proof for L'Hospital's rule ?
limits derivatives continuity
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
My doubt arises due to the following :
We know that the definition of the derivative of a function at a point $x=a$, if it is differentiable at $a$, is:
$$f'(a) = lim_h rightarrow 0 frac f(a+h) - f(a)h$$
Suppose that the function $f(x)$ is differentiable in a finite interval $[c,d]$ and $a in (c,d) $
So, we can apply L'Hospital's rule. On differentiating numerator and denominator with respect to $h$, we get:
$$f'(a) = lim_h rightarrow 0 frac f(a+h) - f(a)h = lim_h rightarrow 0 frac f'(a+h)1$$
Which implies that
$$f'(a) = lim_h rightarrow 0 f'(a+h)$$
Which means that the function $f'(x)$ is continuous at $x=a$
But this not necessarily true. A function may have a derivative everywhere but its derivative may not be continuous at some point. One of many counterexamples is:
$$f(x) = begincases 0 text ; if x=0 \ x^2 sin frac1x text; if x $neq$ 0 endcases$$
Whose derivative isn't continuous at $0$
So, is something wrong with what I have done ? Or is it necessary that for applying L'Hospital's rule, the function's derivative must be a continuous function?
If the latter is true, why does that condition appear in the proof for L'Hospital's rule ?
limits derivatives continuity
$endgroup$
My doubt arises due to the following :
We know that the definition of the derivative of a function at a point $x=a$, if it is differentiable at $a$, is:
$$f'(a) = lim_h rightarrow 0 frac f(a+h) - f(a)h$$
Suppose that the function $f(x)$ is differentiable in a finite interval $[c,d]$ and $a in (c,d) $
So, we can apply L'Hospital's rule. On differentiating numerator and denominator with respect to $h$, we get:
$$f'(a) = lim_h rightarrow 0 frac f(a+h) - f(a)h = lim_h rightarrow 0 frac f'(a+h)1$$
Which implies that
$$f'(a) = lim_h rightarrow 0 f'(a+h)$$
Which means that the function $f'(x)$ is continuous at $x=a$
But this not necessarily true. A function may have a derivative everywhere but its derivative may not be continuous at some point. One of many counterexamples is:
$$f(x) = begincases 0 text ; if x=0 \ x^2 sin frac1x text; if x $neq$ 0 endcases$$
Whose derivative isn't continuous at $0$
So, is something wrong with what I have done ? Or is it necessary that for applying L'Hospital's rule, the function's derivative must be a continuous function?
If the latter is true, why does that condition appear in the proof for L'Hospital's rule ?
limits derivatives continuity
limits derivatives continuity
edited 2 days ago
200_success
668515
668515
asked 2 days ago
DhvanitDhvanit
10010
10010
add a comment |
add a comment |
3 Answers
3
active
oldest
votes
$begingroup$
L'Hospital's rule says under certain conditions: IF $lim_hto 0 fracf'(h)g'(h)=c$ exists, then also $lim_hto 0 fracf(h)g(h)=c$. It does not say anything about the existence of the former limit.
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
@Dhvanit when $lim_hto0fracf'(h)g'(h)$ is one of $pminfty$, which some people classify as not existing, the implication also holds.
$endgroup$
– user647486
2 days ago
$begingroup$
Basically, the condition mentioned in this answer means that applying L'Hospital's rule assumes that $lim_hto 0f'(a+h)$ exists. And if it exists, it can be shown that it must be $f'(a)$ (because derivatives need not be continuous, but still must fulfill the intermdiate value condition).
$endgroup$
– Ingix
2 days ago
$begingroup$
So, is it correct to say that : "If a function is continuous and differentiable in an interval, and if it's derivative is not continuous at $a$, then $lim_h rightarrow 0 f'(a+h)$ must not exist" ? i.e. Is it possible that in such a case, $lim_h rightarrow 0 f'(a+h) $ exists but isn't equal to $f'(a)$ ?
$endgroup$
– Dhvanit
yesterday
1
$begingroup$
@Dhvanit: If $lim_h to 0 f'(a+h) $ exists, then by L'Hopital's rule, it is equal to $f'(a)$ and $f'$ is continuous at the point $a$. Hence if it is not continuousat the point $a$, then the limit does not exists! Observe also that $f'$ satisfies the intermediate value property by Darboux's Theorem
$endgroup$
– Helmut
yesterday
add a comment |
$begingroup$
In this case - yes, you need derivative to be continuous. In general, you need $lim fracf'(x)g'(x)$ to exist to apply L'Hospital's rule. As in your case $g'(x) = 1$, you proved that if there is a limit of $f'(a + h)$, then the limit is equal to $f'(a)$.
New contributor
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
The derivative value exists if:
1. the left-side (-0) derivative exists
2. the right-side (+0) derivative exists
3. and they are the same/identical .
In your case they are not identical.
New contributor
$endgroup$
add a comment |
Your Answer
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3 Answers
3
active
oldest
votes
3 Answers
3
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
$begingroup$
L'Hospital's rule says under certain conditions: IF $lim_hto 0 fracf'(h)g'(h)=c$ exists, then also $lim_hto 0 fracf(h)g(h)=c$. It does not say anything about the existence of the former limit.
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
@Dhvanit when $lim_hto0fracf'(h)g'(h)$ is one of $pminfty$, which some people classify as not existing, the implication also holds.
$endgroup$
– user647486
2 days ago
$begingroup$
Basically, the condition mentioned in this answer means that applying L'Hospital's rule assumes that $lim_hto 0f'(a+h)$ exists. And if it exists, it can be shown that it must be $f'(a)$ (because derivatives need not be continuous, but still must fulfill the intermdiate value condition).
$endgroup$
– Ingix
2 days ago
$begingroup$
So, is it correct to say that : "If a function is continuous and differentiable in an interval, and if it's derivative is not continuous at $a$, then $lim_h rightarrow 0 f'(a+h)$ must not exist" ? i.e. Is it possible that in such a case, $lim_h rightarrow 0 f'(a+h) $ exists but isn't equal to $f'(a)$ ?
$endgroup$
– Dhvanit
yesterday
1
$begingroup$
@Dhvanit: If $lim_h to 0 f'(a+h) $ exists, then by L'Hopital's rule, it is equal to $f'(a)$ and $f'$ is continuous at the point $a$. Hence if it is not continuousat the point $a$, then the limit does not exists! Observe also that $f'$ satisfies the intermediate value property by Darboux's Theorem
$endgroup$
– Helmut
yesterday
add a comment |
$begingroup$
L'Hospital's rule says under certain conditions: IF $lim_hto 0 fracf'(h)g'(h)=c$ exists, then also $lim_hto 0 fracf(h)g(h)=c$. It does not say anything about the existence of the former limit.
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
@Dhvanit when $lim_hto0fracf'(h)g'(h)$ is one of $pminfty$, which some people classify as not existing, the implication also holds.
$endgroup$
– user647486
2 days ago
$begingroup$
Basically, the condition mentioned in this answer means that applying L'Hospital's rule assumes that $lim_hto 0f'(a+h)$ exists. And if it exists, it can be shown that it must be $f'(a)$ (because derivatives need not be continuous, but still must fulfill the intermdiate value condition).
$endgroup$
– Ingix
2 days ago
$begingroup$
So, is it correct to say that : "If a function is continuous and differentiable in an interval, and if it's derivative is not continuous at $a$, then $lim_h rightarrow 0 f'(a+h)$ must not exist" ? i.e. Is it possible that in such a case, $lim_h rightarrow 0 f'(a+h) $ exists but isn't equal to $f'(a)$ ?
$endgroup$
– Dhvanit
yesterday
1
$begingroup$
@Dhvanit: If $lim_h to 0 f'(a+h) $ exists, then by L'Hopital's rule, it is equal to $f'(a)$ and $f'$ is continuous at the point $a$. Hence if it is not continuousat the point $a$, then the limit does not exists! Observe also that $f'$ satisfies the intermediate value property by Darboux's Theorem
$endgroup$
– Helmut
yesterday
add a comment |
$begingroup$
L'Hospital's rule says under certain conditions: IF $lim_hto 0 fracf'(h)g'(h)=c$ exists, then also $lim_hto 0 fracf(h)g(h)=c$. It does not say anything about the existence of the former limit.
$endgroup$
L'Hospital's rule says under certain conditions: IF $lim_hto 0 fracf'(h)g'(h)=c$ exists, then also $lim_hto 0 fracf(h)g(h)=c$. It does not say anything about the existence of the former limit.
answered 2 days ago
HelmutHelmut
834128
834128
$begingroup$
@Dhvanit when $lim_hto0fracf'(h)g'(h)$ is one of $pminfty$, which some people classify as not existing, the implication also holds.
$endgroup$
– user647486
2 days ago
$begingroup$
Basically, the condition mentioned in this answer means that applying L'Hospital's rule assumes that $lim_hto 0f'(a+h)$ exists. And if it exists, it can be shown that it must be $f'(a)$ (because derivatives need not be continuous, but still must fulfill the intermdiate value condition).
$endgroup$
– Ingix
2 days ago
$begingroup$
So, is it correct to say that : "If a function is continuous and differentiable in an interval, and if it's derivative is not continuous at $a$, then $lim_h rightarrow 0 f'(a+h)$ must not exist" ? i.e. Is it possible that in such a case, $lim_h rightarrow 0 f'(a+h) $ exists but isn't equal to $f'(a)$ ?
$endgroup$
– Dhvanit
yesterday
1
$begingroup$
@Dhvanit: If $lim_h to 0 f'(a+h) $ exists, then by L'Hopital's rule, it is equal to $f'(a)$ and $f'$ is continuous at the point $a$. Hence if it is not continuousat the point $a$, then the limit does not exists! Observe also that $f'$ satisfies the intermediate value property by Darboux's Theorem
$endgroup$
– Helmut
yesterday
add a comment |
$begingroup$
@Dhvanit when $lim_hto0fracf'(h)g'(h)$ is one of $pminfty$, which some people classify as not existing, the implication also holds.
$endgroup$
– user647486
2 days ago
$begingroup$
Basically, the condition mentioned in this answer means that applying L'Hospital's rule assumes that $lim_hto 0f'(a+h)$ exists. And if it exists, it can be shown that it must be $f'(a)$ (because derivatives need not be continuous, but still must fulfill the intermdiate value condition).
$endgroup$
– Ingix
2 days ago
$begingroup$
So, is it correct to say that : "If a function is continuous and differentiable in an interval, and if it's derivative is not continuous at $a$, then $lim_h rightarrow 0 f'(a+h)$ must not exist" ? i.e. Is it possible that in such a case, $lim_h rightarrow 0 f'(a+h) $ exists but isn't equal to $f'(a)$ ?
$endgroup$
– Dhvanit
yesterday
1
$begingroup$
@Dhvanit: If $lim_h to 0 f'(a+h) $ exists, then by L'Hopital's rule, it is equal to $f'(a)$ and $f'$ is continuous at the point $a$. Hence if it is not continuousat the point $a$, then the limit does not exists! Observe also that $f'$ satisfies the intermediate value property by Darboux's Theorem
$endgroup$
– Helmut
yesterday
$begingroup$
@Dhvanit when $lim_hto0fracf'(h)g'(h)$ is one of $pminfty$, which some people classify as not existing, the implication also holds.
$endgroup$
– user647486
2 days ago
$begingroup$
@Dhvanit when $lim_hto0fracf'(h)g'(h)$ is one of $pminfty$, which some people classify as not existing, the implication also holds.
$endgroup$
– user647486
2 days ago
$begingroup$
Basically, the condition mentioned in this answer means that applying L'Hospital's rule assumes that $lim_hto 0f'(a+h)$ exists. And if it exists, it can be shown that it must be $f'(a)$ (because derivatives need not be continuous, but still must fulfill the intermdiate value condition).
$endgroup$
– Ingix
2 days ago
$begingroup$
Basically, the condition mentioned in this answer means that applying L'Hospital's rule assumes that $lim_hto 0f'(a+h)$ exists. And if it exists, it can be shown that it must be $f'(a)$ (because derivatives need not be continuous, but still must fulfill the intermdiate value condition).
$endgroup$
– Ingix
2 days ago
$begingroup$
So, is it correct to say that : "If a function is continuous and differentiable in an interval, and if it's derivative is not continuous at $a$, then $lim_h rightarrow 0 f'(a+h)$ must not exist" ? i.e. Is it possible that in such a case, $lim_h rightarrow 0 f'(a+h) $ exists but isn't equal to $f'(a)$ ?
$endgroup$
– Dhvanit
yesterday
$begingroup$
So, is it correct to say that : "If a function is continuous and differentiable in an interval, and if it's derivative is not continuous at $a$, then $lim_h rightarrow 0 f'(a+h)$ must not exist" ? i.e. Is it possible that in such a case, $lim_h rightarrow 0 f'(a+h) $ exists but isn't equal to $f'(a)$ ?
$endgroup$
– Dhvanit
yesterday
1
1
$begingroup$
@Dhvanit: If $lim_h to 0 f'(a+h) $ exists, then by L'Hopital's rule, it is equal to $f'(a)$ and $f'$ is continuous at the point $a$. Hence if it is not continuousat the point $a$, then the limit does not exists! Observe also that $f'$ satisfies the intermediate value property by Darboux's Theorem
$endgroup$
– Helmut
yesterday
$begingroup$
@Dhvanit: If $lim_h to 0 f'(a+h) $ exists, then by L'Hopital's rule, it is equal to $f'(a)$ and $f'$ is continuous at the point $a$. Hence if it is not continuousat the point $a$, then the limit does not exists! Observe also that $f'$ satisfies the intermediate value property by Darboux's Theorem
$endgroup$
– Helmut
yesterday
add a comment |
$begingroup$
In this case - yes, you need derivative to be continuous. In general, you need $lim fracf'(x)g'(x)$ to exist to apply L'Hospital's rule. As in your case $g'(x) = 1$, you proved that if there is a limit of $f'(a + h)$, then the limit is equal to $f'(a)$.
New contributor
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
In this case - yes, you need derivative to be continuous. In general, you need $lim fracf'(x)g'(x)$ to exist to apply L'Hospital's rule. As in your case $g'(x) = 1$, you proved that if there is a limit of $f'(a + h)$, then the limit is equal to $f'(a)$.
New contributor
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
In this case - yes, you need derivative to be continuous. In general, you need $lim fracf'(x)g'(x)$ to exist to apply L'Hospital's rule. As in your case $g'(x) = 1$, you proved that if there is a limit of $f'(a + h)$, then the limit is equal to $f'(a)$.
New contributor
$endgroup$
In this case - yes, you need derivative to be continuous. In general, you need $lim fracf'(x)g'(x)$ to exist to apply L'Hospital's rule. As in your case $g'(x) = 1$, you proved that if there is a limit of $f'(a + h)$, then the limit is equal to $f'(a)$.
New contributor
New contributor
answered 2 days ago
mihaildmihaild
63810
63810
New contributor
New contributor
add a comment |
add a comment |
$begingroup$
The derivative value exists if:
1. the left-side (-0) derivative exists
2. the right-side (+0) derivative exists
3. and they are the same/identical .
In your case they are not identical.
New contributor
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
The derivative value exists if:
1. the left-side (-0) derivative exists
2. the right-side (+0) derivative exists
3. and they are the same/identical .
In your case they are not identical.
New contributor
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
The derivative value exists if:
1. the left-side (-0) derivative exists
2. the right-side (+0) derivative exists
3. and they are the same/identical .
In your case they are not identical.
New contributor
$endgroup$
The derivative value exists if:
1. the left-side (-0) derivative exists
2. the right-side (+0) derivative exists
3. and they are the same/identical .
In your case they are not identical.
New contributor
New contributor
answered 2 days ago
user9user9
1
1
New contributor
New contributor
add a comment |
add a comment |
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