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What is the length of pair of wires after twisting them around each other?
Calulating length of cable running along exterior of an axleArea covered by a constant length segment rotating around the center of a square.Find depth of a half-filled parabolic cross-sectionWhat shape results from this deformation of a circle?Maximum tilt for a cylindrical glass without spillingIs this dress puzzle solvable?Cross Section of a Pancake Laying on a CylinderDimensions of paper needed to roll a cone (Updated with clarifications)
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$begingroup$
Given two wires each of diameter D and length L, what will be the new length after you twist the wires around each other 1 Turn?
I mean that when you start with the pair of straight wires and put them against a scale, the length is L. When you twist them around each other tightly, and place the straightened twisted wire against the scale, its new length will be reduced.
And what I mean by 1 Turn is that looking at the cross-section, if you begin with the Red wire on top, Black at bottom then after half Turn the Red wire is at bottom and after another half Turn (or Total 1 Turn) the Red is on top again. And both wires are twisting in same direction, say clockwise, when looking at the cross-section. Successive cross-sections will look like the number 8 rotating.
I suppose we should also give the pitch? But when you play with an actual mouse wire, twisting it around itself, you will realize that you can not reduce the pitch beyond a certain extent. So what is that minimum pitch when twisting the wires? What is causing that restriction? Can it be quantified?
Perhaps the question is not too clear, so please feel free to edit/clarify.
geometry
$endgroup$
add a comment
|
$begingroup$
Given two wires each of diameter D and length L, what will be the new length after you twist the wires around each other 1 Turn?
I mean that when you start with the pair of straight wires and put them against a scale, the length is L. When you twist them around each other tightly, and place the straightened twisted wire against the scale, its new length will be reduced.
And what I mean by 1 Turn is that looking at the cross-section, if you begin with the Red wire on top, Black at bottom then after half Turn the Red wire is at bottom and after another half Turn (or Total 1 Turn) the Red is on top again. And both wires are twisting in same direction, say clockwise, when looking at the cross-section. Successive cross-sections will look like the number 8 rotating.
I suppose we should also give the pitch? But when you play with an actual mouse wire, twisting it around itself, you will realize that you can not reduce the pitch beyond a certain extent. So what is that minimum pitch when twisting the wires? What is causing that restriction? Can it be quantified?
Perhaps the question is not too clear, so please feel free to edit/clarify.
geometry
$endgroup$
add a comment
|
$begingroup$
Given two wires each of diameter D and length L, what will be the new length after you twist the wires around each other 1 Turn?
I mean that when you start with the pair of straight wires and put them against a scale, the length is L. When you twist them around each other tightly, and place the straightened twisted wire against the scale, its new length will be reduced.
And what I mean by 1 Turn is that looking at the cross-section, if you begin with the Red wire on top, Black at bottom then after half Turn the Red wire is at bottom and after another half Turn (or Total 1 Turn) the Red is on top again. And both wires are twisting in same direction, say clockwise, when looking at the cross-section. Successive cross-sections will look like the number 8 rotating.
I suppose we should also give the pitch? But when you play with an actual mouse wire, twisting it around itself, you will realize that you can not reduce the pitch beyond a certain extent. So what is that minimum pitch when twisting the wires? What is causing that restriction? Can it be quantified?
Perhaps the question is not too clear, so please feel free to edit/clarify.
geometry
$endgroup$
Given two wires each of diameter D and length L, what will be the new length after you twist the wires around each other 1 Turn?
I mean that when you start with the pair of straight wires and put them against a scale, the length is L. When you twist them around each other tightly, and place the straightened twisted wire against the scale, its new length will be reduced.
And what I mean by 1 Turn is that looking at the cross-section, if you begin with the Red wire on top, Black at bottom then after half Turn the Red wire is at bottom and after another half Turn (or Total 1 Turn) the Red is on top again. And both wires are twisting in same direction, say clockwise, when looking at the cross-section. Successive cross-sections will look like the number 8 rotating.
I suppose we should also give the pitch? But when you play with an actual mouse wire, twisting it around itself, you will realize that you can not reduce the pitch beyond a certain extent. So what is that minimum pitch when twisting the wires? What is causing that restriction? Can it be quantified?
Perhaps the question is not too clear, so please feel free to edit/clarify.
geometry
geometry
edited Aug 12 at 0:49
Lemur
asked Aug 11 at 17:38
LemurLemur
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35012 bronze badges
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1 Answer
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$begingroup$
The axis of each wire will take the shape of a helix of radius $D/2$ and height $H$. The length of each helix is (for one turn)
$$
L=sqrtH^2+pi^2 D^2
$$
and we can invert this to obtain the desired new length:
$$
H=sqrtL^2-pi^2 D^2.
$$
This is the vertical distance between the centers of the end sections of a wire, total length will be $H+Dcostheta$, where the slope $theta$ of a wire (called "pitch" in the question) is given by $tantheta=Hoverpi D$ (see figure).

As for the minimum slope, my previous answer was not correct. Experimenting with GeoGebra, it seems that $theta_min=45°$, which is the slope in the figure.
EDIT.
The equations of the two helices, if $a=D/2$ and $b=H/(2pi)$, can be written as:
$$
(acos t, asin t, bt),quad (-acos t, -asin t, bt),quad 0le tle 2pi.
$$
Let's take any point on the first helix, e.g. $P=(a,0,0)$ (corresponding to $t=0$). Its distance $s$ from any point on the second helix is:
$$
s(t)=sqrt2a^2(1+cos t)+b^2t^2,quad 0le tle 2pi.
$$
The wires don't intersect if $sge2a$, but it's easy to check that the minimum of $s(t)$ is $s(0)=2a$ only if $bge a$. On the contrary, if $b<a$ the minimum of $s(t)$ occurs when $t$ is the root of $sin tover t=b^2over a^2$, and this minimum is strictly less than $2a$.
For the wires not to intersect, we must therefore require $bge a$, which translates in a bound on the slope:
$$
tantheta=bover age1,quadtexti.e.quad thetage45°.
$$
EDIT.
Here's the GeoGebra code to draw the two surfaces in the figure above:
Surface((a cos(t), a sin(t), b t) + r cos(u) (cos(t), sin(t), 0) + r sin(u) (b sin(t), -b cos(t), a) / sqrt(a² + b²), t, 0, 2π, u, 0, 2π)
Surface((-a cos(t), -a sin(t), b t) + r cos(u) (-cos(t), -sin(t), 0) + r sin(u) (-b sin(t), b cos(t), a) / sqrt(a² + b²), t, 0, 2π, u, 0, 2π)
Where $a$ is the distance of each helix from the axis of symmetry, $b$ is the height of each helix, and $r$ is the radius of the wire (which is the same as $a$ in figure above).
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
Thank you for answering. Given that the wires are tightly wound and can not seem to be twisted below a certain threshold H, is there a relation between D & L that would quantify that threshold?
$endgroup$
– Lemur
Aug 11 at 20:08
$begingroup$
This is unclear. why is H = D Cosθ at minimum? Or should it be H/2 = D Cosθ ??
$endgroup$
– Lemur
Aug 11 at 22:21
$begingroup$
Still can't wrap my head around as to why the length will be H+D and not just H the length of the axis. The figure makes it even more confusing. I was under the impression that the cross section is the figure 8 and distance between the 2 centers is always D. Thanks anyway.
$endgroup$
– Lemur
Aug 12 at 0:45
1
$begingroup$
I edited my answer with a proof for the bound on the slope.
$endgroup$
– Aretino
Aug 13 at 15:48
1
$begingroup$
@Kumar I made it with GeoGebra, a very good free software for interactive geometry. I uploaded my file here for you to explore or download.
$endgroup$
– Aretino
Aug 13 at 17:16
|
show 8 more comments
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1 Answer
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1 Answer
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oldest
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$begingroup$
The axis of each wire will take the shape of a helix of radius $D/2$ and height $H$. The length of each helix is (for one turn)
$$
L=sqrtH^2+pi^2 D^2
$$
and we can invert this to obtain the desired new length:
$$
H=sqrtL^2-pi^2 D^2.
$$
This is the vertical distance between the centers of the end sections of a wire, total length will be $H+Dcostheta$, where the slope $theta$ of a wire (called "pitch" in the question) is given by $tantheta=Hoverpi D$ (see figure).

As for the minimum slope, my previous answer was not correct. Experimenting with GeoGebra, it seems that $theta_min=45°$, which is the slope in the figure.
EDIT.
The equations of the two helices, if $a=D/2$ and $b=H/(2pi)$, can be written as:
$$
(acos t, asin t, bt),quad (-acos t, -asin t, bt),quad 0le tle 2pi.
$$
Let's take any point on the first helix, e.g. $P=(a,0,0)$ (corresponding to $t=0$). Its distance $s$ from any point on the second helix is:
$$
s(t)=sqrt2a^2(1+cos t)+b^2t^2,quad 0le tle 2pi.
$$
The wires don't intersect if $sge2a$, but it's easy to check that the minimum of $s(t)$ is $s(0)=2a$ only if $bge a$. On the contrary, if $b<a$ the minimum of $s(t)$ occurs when $t$ is the root of $sin tover t=b^2over a^2$, and this minimum is strictly less than $2a$.
For the wires not to intersect, we must therefore require $bge a$, which translates in a bound on the slope:
$$
tantheta=bover age1,quadtexti.e.quad thetage45°.
$$
EDIT.
Here's the GeoGebra code to draw the two surfaces in the figure above:
Surface((a cos(t), a sin(t), b t) + r cos(u) (cos(t), sin(t), 0) + r sin(u) (b sin(t), -b cos(t), a) / sqrt(a² + b²), t, 0, 2π, u, 0, 2π)
Surface((-a cos(t), -a sin(t), b t) + r cos(u) (-cos(t), -sin(t), 0) + r sin(u) (-b sin(t), b cos(t), a) / sqrt(a² + b²), t, 0, 2π, u, 0, 2π)
Where $a$ is the distance of each helix from the axis of symmetry, $b$ is the height of each helix, and $r$ is the radius of the wire (which is the same as $a$ in figure above).
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
Thank you for answering. Given that the wires are tightly wound and can not seem to be twisted below a certain threshold H, is there a relation between D & L that would quantify that threshold?
$endgroup$
– Lemur
Aug 11 at 20:08
$begingroup$
This is unclear. why is H = D Cosθ at minimum? Or should it be H/2 = D Cosθ ??
$endgroup$
– Lemur
Aug 11 at 22:21
$begingroup$
Still can't wrap my head around as to why the length will be H+D and not just H the length of the axis. The figure makes it even more confusing. I was under the impression that the cross section is the figure 8 and distance between the 2 centers is always D. Thanks anyway.
$endgroup$
– Lemur
Aug 12 at 0:45
1
$begingroup$
I edited my answer with a proof for the bound on the slope.
$endgroup$
– Aretino
Aug 13 at 15:48
1
$begingroup$
@Kumar I made it with GeoGebra, a very good free software for interactive geometry. I uploaded my file here for you to explore or download.
$endgroup$
– Aretino
Aug 13 at 17:16
|
show 8 more comments
$begingroup$
The axis of each wire will take the shape of a helix of radius $D/2$ and height $H$. The length of each helix is (for one turn)
$$
L=sqrtH^2+pi^2 D^2
$$
and we can invert this to obtain the desired new length:
$$
H=sqrtL^2-pi^2 D^2.
$$
This is the vertical distance between the centers of the end sections of a wire, total length will be $H+Dcostheta$, where the slope $theta$ of a wire (called "pitch" in the question) is given by $tantheta=Hoverpi D$ (see figure).

As for the minimum slope, my previous answer was not correct. Experimenting with GeoGebra, it seems that $theta_min=45°$, which is the slope in the figure.
EDIT.
The equations of the two helices, if $a=D/2$ and $b=H/(2pi)$, can be written as:
$$
(acos t, asin t, bt),quad (-acos t, -asin t, bt),quad 0le tle 2pi.
$$
Let's take any point on the first helix, e.g. $P=(a,0,0)$ (corresponding to $t=0$). Its distance $s$ from any point on the second helix is:
$$
s(t)=sqrt2a^2(1+cos t)+b^2t^2,quad 0le tle 2pi.
$$
The wires don't intersect if $sge2a$, but it's easy to check that the minimum of $s(t)$ is $s(0)=2a$ only if $bge a$. On the contrary, if $b<a$ the minimum of $s(t)$ occurs when $t$ is the root of $sin tover t=b^2over a^2$, and this minimum is strictly less than $2a$.
For the wires not to intersect, we must therefore require $bge a$, which translates in a bound on the slope:
$$
tantheta=bover age1,quadtexti.e.quad thetage45°.
$$
EDIT.
Here's the GeoGebra code to draw the two surfaces in the figure above:
Surface((a cos(t), a sin(t), b t) + r cos(u) (cos(t), sin(t), 0) + r sin(u) (b sin(t), -b cos(t), a) / sqrt(a² + b²), t, 0, 2π, u, 0, 2π)
Surface((-a cos(t), -a sin(t), b t) + r cos(u) (-cos(t), -sin(t), 0) + r sin(u) (-b sin(t), b cos(t), a) / sqrt(a² + b²), t, 0, 2π, u, 0, 2π)
Where $a$ is the distance of each helix from the axis of symmetry, $b$ is the height of each helix, and $r$ is the radius of the wire (which is the same as $a$ in figure above).
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
Thank you for answering. Given that the wires are tightly wound and can not seem to be twisted below a certain threshold H, is there a relation between D & L that would quantify that threshold?
$endgroup$
– Lemur
Aug 11 at 20:08
$begingroup$
This is unclear. why is H = D Cosθ at minimum? Or should it be H/2 = D Cosθ ??
$endgroup$
– Lemur
Aug 11 at 22:21
$begingroup$
Still can't wrap my head around as to why the length will be H+D and not just H the length of the axis. The figure makes it even more confusing. I was under the impression that the cross section is the figure 8 and distance between the 2 centers is always D. Thanks anyway.
$endgroup$
– Lemur
Aug 12 at 0:45
1
$begingroup$
I edited my answer with a proof for the bound on the slope.
$endgroup$
– Aretino
Aug 13 at 15:48
1
$begingroup$
@Kumar I made it with GeoGebra, a very good free software for interactive geometry. I uploaded my file here for you to explore or download.
$endgroup$
– Aretino
Aug 13 at 17:16
|
show 8 more comments
$begingroup$
The axis of each wire will take the shape of a helix of radius $D/2$ and height $H$. The length of each helix is (for one turn)
$$
L=sqrtH^2+pi^2 D^2
$$
and we can invert this to obtain the desired new length:
$$
H=sqrtL^2-pi^2 D^2.
$$
This is the vertical distance between the centers of the end sections of a wire, total length will be $H+Dcostheta$, where the slope $theta$ of a wire (called "pitch" in the question) is given by $tantheta=Hoverpi D$ (see figure).

As for the minimum slope, my previous answer was not correct. Experimenting with GeoGebra, it seems that $theta_min=45°$, which is the slope in the figure.
EDIT.
The equations of the two helices, if $a=D/2$ and $b=H/(2pi)$, can be written as:
$$
(acos t, asin t, bt),quad (-acos t, -asin t, bt),quad 0le tle 2pi.
$$
Let's take any point on the first helix, e.g. $P=(a,0,0)$ (corresponding to $t=0$). Its distance $s$ from any point on the second helix is:
$$
s(t)=sqrt2a^2(1+cos t)+b^2t^2,quad 0le tle 2pi.
$$
The wires don't intersect if $sge2a$, but it's easy to check that the minimum of $s(t)$ is $s(0)=2a$ only if $bge a$. On the contrary, if $b<a$ the minimum of $s(t)$ occurs when $t$ is the root of $sin tover t=b^2over a^2$, and this minimum is strictly less than $2a$.
For the wires not to intersect, we must therefore require $bge a$, which translates in a bound on the slope:
$$
tantheta=bover age1,quadtexti.e.quad thetage45°.
$$
EDIT.
Here's the GeoGebra code to draw the two surfaces in the figure above:
Surface((a cos(t), a sin(t), b t) + r cos(u) (cos(t), sin(t), 0) + r sin(u) (b sin(t), -b cos(t), a) / sqrt(a² + b²), t, 0, 2π, u, 0, 2π)
Surface((-a cos(t), -a sin(t), b t) + r cos(u) (-cos(t), -sin(t), 0) + r sin(u) (-b sin(t), b cos(t), a) / sqrt(a² + b²), t, 0, 2π, u, 0, 2π)
Where $a$ is the distance of each helix from the axis of symmetry, $b$ is the height of each helix, and $r$ is the radius of the wire (which is the same as $a$ in figure above).
$endgroup$
The axis of each wire will take the shape of a helix of radius $D/2$ and height $H$. The length of each helix is (for one turn)
$$
L=sqrtH^2+pi^2 D^2
$$
and we can invert this to obtain the desired new length:
$$
H=sqrtL^2-pi^2 D^2.
$$
This is the vertical distance between the centers of the end sections of a wire, total length will be $H+Dcostheta$, where the slope $theta$ of a wire (called "pitch" in the question) is given by $tantheta=Hoverpi D$ (see figure).

As for the minimum slope, my previous answer was not correct. Experimenting with GeoGebra, it seems that $theta_min=45°$, which is the slope in the figure.
EDIT.
The equations of the two helices, if $a=D/2$ and $b=H/(2pi)$, can be written as:
$$
(acos t, asin t, bt),quad (-acos t, -asin t, bt),quad 0le tle 2pi.
$$
Let's take any point on the first helix, e.g. $P=(a,0,0)$ (corresponding to $t=0$). Its distance $s$ from any point on the second helix is:
$$
s(t)=sqrt2a^2(1+cos t)+b^2t^2,quad 0le tle 2pi.
$$
The wires don't intersect if $sge2a$, but it's easy to check that the minimum of $s(t)$ is $s(0)=2a$ only if $bge a$. On the contrary, if $b<a$ the minimum of $s(t)$ occurs when $t$ is the root of $sin tover t=b^2over a^2$, and this minimum is strictly less than $2a$.
For the wires not to intersect, we must therefore require $bge a$, which translates in a bound on the slope:
$$
tantheta=bover age1,quadtexti.e.quad thetage45°.
$$
EDIT.
Here's the GeoGebra code to draw the two surfaces in the figure above:
Surface((a cos(t), a sin(t), b t) + r cos(u) (cos(t), sin(t), 0) + r sin(u) (b sin(t), -b cos(t), a) / sqrt(a² + b²), t, 0, 2π, u, 0, 2π)
Surface((-a cos(t), -a sin(t), b t) + r cos(u) (-cos(t), -sin(t), 0) + r sin(u) (-b sin(t), b cos(t), a) / sqrt(a² + b²), t, 0, 2π, u, 0, 2π)
Where $a$ is the distance of each helix from the axis of symmetry, $b$ is the height of each helix, and $r$ is the radius of the wire (which is the same as $a$ in figure above).
edited Aug 28 at 19:24
answered Aug 11 at 19:52
AretinoAretino
29.1k3 gold badges22 silver badges50 bronze badges
29.1k3 gold badges22 silver badges50 bronze badges
$begingroup$
Thank you for answering. Given that the wires are tightly wound and can not seem to be twisted below a certain threshold H, is there a relation between D & L that would quantify that threshold?
$endgroup$
– Lemur
Aug 11 at 20:08
$begingroup$
This is unclear. why is H = D Cosθ at minimum? Or should it be H/2 = D Cosθ ??
$endgroup$
– Lemur
Aug 11 at 22:21
$begingroup$
Still can't wrap my head around as to why the length will be H+D and not just H the length of the axis. The figure makes it even more confusing. I was under the impression that the cross section is the figure 8 and distance between the 2 centers is always D. Thanks anyway.
$endgroup$
– Lemur
Aug 12 at 0:45
1
$begingroup$
I edited my answer with a proof for the bound on the slope.
$endgroup$
– Aretino
Aug 13 at 15:48
1
$begingroup$
@Kumar I made it with GeoGebra, a very good free software for interactive geometry. I uploaded my file here for you to explore or download.
$endgroup$
– Aretino
Aug 13 at 17:16
|
show 8 more comments
$begingroup$
Thank you for answering. Given that the wires are tightly wound and can not seem to be twisted below a certain threshold H, is there a relation between D & L that would quantify that threshold?
$endgroup$
– Lemur
Aug 11 at 20:08
$begingroup$
This is unclear. why is H = D Cosθ at minimum? Or should it be H/2 = D Cosθ ??
$endgroup$
– Lemur
Aug 11 at 22:21
$begingroup$
Still can't wrap my head around as to why the length will be H+D and not just H the length of the axis. The figure makes it even more confusing. I was under the impression that the cross section is the figure 8 and distance between the 2 centers is always D. Thanks anyway.
$endgroup$
– Lemur
Aug 12 at 0:45
1
$begingroup$
I edited my answer with a proof for the bound on the slope.
$endgroup$
– Aretino
Aug 13 at 15:48
1
$begingroup$
@Kumar I made it with GeoGebra, a very good free software for interactive geometry. I uploaded my file here for you to explore or download.
$endgroup$
– Aretino
Aug 13 at 17:16
$begingroup$
Thank you for answering. Given that the wires are tightly wound and can not seem to be twisted below a certain threshold H, is there a relation between D & L that would quantify that threshold?
$endgroup$
– Lemur
Aug 11 at 20:08
$begingroup$
Thank you for answering. Given that the wires are tightly wound and can not seem to be twisted below a certain threshold H, is there a relation between D & L that would quantify that threshold?
$endgroup$
– Lemur
Aug 11 at 20:08
$begingroup$
This is unclear. why is H = D Cosθ at minimum? Or should it be H/2 = D Cosθ ??
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– Lemur
Aug 11 at 22:21
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This is unclear. why is H = D Cosθ at minimum? Or should it be H/2 = D Cosθ ??
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– Lemur
Aug 11 at 22:21
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Still can't wrap my head around as to why the length will be H+D and not just H the length of the axis. The figure makes it even more confusing. I was under the impression that the cross section is the figure 8 and distance between the 2 centers is always D. Thanks anyway.
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– Lemur
Aug 12 at 0:45
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Still can't wrap my head around as to why the length will be H+D and not just H the length of the axis. The figure makes it even more confusing. I was under the impression that the cross section is the figure 8 and distance between the 2 centers is always D. Thanks anyway.
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– Lemur
Aug 12 at 0:45
1
1
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I edited my answer with a proof for the bound on the slope.
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– Aretino
Aug 13 at 15:48
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I edited my answer with a proof for the bound on the slope.
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– Aretino
Aug 13 at 15:48
1
1
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@Kumar I made it with GeoGebra, a very good free software for interactive geometry. I uploaded my file here for you to explore or download.
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– Aretino
Aug 13 at 17:16
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@Kumar I made it with GeoGebra, a very good free software for interactive geometry. I uploaded my file here for you to explore or download.
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– Aretino
Aug 13 at 17:16
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