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Composing religious songs and melodies on Shabbos [duplicate]

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1

"Shiru laHashem shir chadash..."
"Mizmor shir leYom haShabbat"
Recently on Shabbat I put together some notes in a pleasing order, and used it as a zemer at our table. A guest was concerned that I was transgressing an issur of nolad. My understanding is that nolad involves physical creation. We may be inspired with chiddushim / novel Torah thoughts, make up stories to teach our children, and create new songs of praise to Hashem. Does anyone have sources to support or deny this?

Addendum: I am not asking for creative speculation or opinion based on similar sounding halachot, I'm asking for textual sources that address this question directly.

shabbat melacha-creative-work music

share|improve this question

edited Oct 2 at 19:00

Lichvod Shabbat

asked Sep 29 at 10:27

Lichvod ShabbatLichvod Shabbat

12944 bronze badges

• 
  
  
  

  
  

  
  
  
  
  
  

  
  
  By "put together" do you mean in your head (likely OK), or did you write down the notes (definitely assur)?
  
  – Josh K
  Sep 29 at 13:25
  

  
  
  
  


• 
  
  
  

  
  

  
  
  
  
  
  

  
  
  (possible duplicate) I've asked a very similiar question and got decent answers: judaism.stackexchange.com/questions/100016/…
  
  – Ilja
  Oct 1 at 18:53
  
  

  
  
  
  


• 
  
  
  

  
  

  
  
  
  
  
  

  
  
  This is not a duplicate question; my question is "does anyone have sources to (directly) support or deny" my theory. Also, the answer to that other question is only a suggested parallel which is creatively drawn from other areas (thinking about work). I'm not asking people to pretend to be a sage and make a chiddush based on oblique texts, I'm wondering if there are any texts that directly answer the question.
  
  – Lichvod Shabbat
  Oct 2 at 18:49
  
  

  
  
  
  


• 
  
  
  

  
  

  
  
  
  
  
  

  
  
  @LichvodShabbat I struggle to see how, even with your latest edits, this is different from the other post.
  
  – DonielF
  Oct 3 at 3:56
  

  
  
  
  


• 
  
  
  

  
  

  
  
  
  
  
  

  
  
  OK, if you insist. So the question could be refined to "What are sources that state that intellectual creations are not in scope of nolad?" I did not consider music to be "intellectual" but perhaps that would fit your criteria for a different quesiton.
  
  – Lichvod Shabbat
  Oct 4 at 7:20
  

  
  
  
  

add a comment
 | 

1

"Shiru laHashem shir chadash..."
"Mizmor shir leYom haShabbat"
Recently on Shabbat I put together some notes in a pleasing order, and used it as a zemer at our table. A guest was concerned that I was transgressing an issur of nolad. My understanding is that nolad involves physical creation. We may be inspired with chiddushim / novel Torah thoughts, make up stories to teach our children, and create new songs of praise to Hashem. Does anyone have sources to support or deny this?

Addendum: I am not asking for creative speculation or opinion based on similar sounding halachot, I'm asking for textual sources that address this question directly.

shabbat melacha-creative-work music

share|improve this question

edited Oct 2 at 19:00

Lichvod Shabbat

asked Sep 29 at 10:27

Lichvod ShabbatLichvod Shabbat

12944 bronze badges

• 
  
  
  

  
  

  
  
  
  
  
  

  
  
  By "put together" do you mean in your head (likely OK), or did you write down the notes (definitely assur)?
  
  – Josh K
  Sep 29 at 13:25
  

  
  
  
  


• 
  
  
  

  
  

  
  
  
  
  
  

  
  
  (possible duplicate) I've asked a very similiar question and got decent answers: judaism.stackexchange.com/questions/100016/…
  
  – Ilja
  Oct 1 at 18:53
  
  

  
  
  
  


• 
  
  
  

  
  

  
  
  
  
  
  

  
  
  This is not a duplicate question; my question is "does anyone have sources to (directly) support or deny" my theory. Also, the answer to that other question is only a suggested parallel which is creatively drawn from other areas (thinking about work). I'm not asking people to pretend to be a sage and make a chiddush based on oblique texts, I'm wondering if there are any texts that directly answer the question.
  
  – Lichvod Shabbat
  Oct 2 at 18:49
  
  

  
  
  
  


• 
  
  
  

  
  

  
  
  
  
  
  

  
  
  @LichvodShabbat I struggle to see how, even with your latest edits, this is different from the other post.
  
  – DonielF
  Oct 3 at 3:56
  

  
  
  
  


• 
  
  
  

  
  

  
  
  
  
  
  

  
  
  OK, if you insist. So the question could be refined to "What are sources that state that intellectual creations are not in scope of nolad?" I did not consider music to be "intellectual" but perhaps that would fit your criteria for a different quesiton.
  
  – Lichvod Shabbat
  Oct 4 at 7:20
  

  
  
  
  

add a comment
 | 

"Shiru laHashem shir chadash..."
"Mizmor shir leYom haShabbat"
Recently on Shabbat I put together some notes in a pleasing order, and used it as a zemer at our table. A guest was concerned that I was transgressing an issur of nolad. My understanding is that nolad involves physical creation. We may be inspired with chiddushim / novel Torah thoughts, make up stories to teach our children, and create new songs of praise to Hashem. Does anyone have sources to support or deny this?

Addendum: I am not asking for creative speculation or opinion based on similar sounding halachot, I'm asking for textual sources that address this question directly.

shabbat melacha-creative-work music

share|improve this question

edited Oct 2 at 19:00

Lichvod Shabbat

asked Sep 29 at 10:27

Lichvod ShabbatLichvod Shabbat

12944 bronze badges

share|improve this question

edited Oct 2 at 19:00

Lichvod Shabbat

asked Sep 29 at 10:27

Lichvod ShabbatLichvod Shabbat

12944 bronze badges

share|improve this question

edited Oct 2 at 19:00

Lichvod Shabbat

asked Sep 29 at 10:27

Lichvod ShabbatLichvod Shabbat

12944 bronze badges

asked Sep 29 at 10:27

Lichvod ShabbatLichvod Shabbat

12944 bronze badges

asked Sep 29 at 10:27

Lichvod ShabbatLichvod Shabbat

12944 bronze badges

1 Answer
1

active

oldest

votes

5

As you correctly write, nolad applies to physical elements and is connected to the laws of mukze, which also only applies to physical objects.

Kitzur Shulchan Aruch writes (88:4)

Nolad is something that came into being today, such as ashes from a
fire which was ignited today by a non-Jew; or an egg that was laid
today and sap running from the trees during the month of Nissan.
And even if nothing new came into being today, but came as a result of
an act which is forbidden today, such as fruit that fell from the
tree, or was plucked by a non-Jew, or milk that was milked today and
the like, are also forbidden to be handled.

Intellectual creations are not in scope of nolad. If there was a concern, it might be that one would reach out to play a musical instrument to "try out" a new melody, but this is no different from forbidding to think because one might reach out to write new thoughts.

I did check the above with R Binyamin Tabady who concurs there is no prohibition of composing new songs as long as one doesn't write them up or play them.

share|improve this answer

edited Oct 1 at 16:46

answered Sep 29 at 11:03

mblochmbloch

35.6k66 gold badges5959 silver badges164164 bronze badges

• 
  
  
  

  
  

  
  
  
  
  
  

  
  
  Thank you all. We have no clear proof yet from a textual source; the Kitzur doesn't mention the permissibility of immaterial creations. This is the closest thing I've found so far, but it is from Kabbala, not halacha, and regarding chidushim in Torah (of course also not written down; I didn't think I would need to mention in my question the obvious lack of writing): Zohar (3, 173:1) states that on Saturday night, after the neshama yeteira returns to heaven, God asks what ĥidushim each Jew innovated that Shabbat with the help of his neshama yeteira (Shlah, Masekhet Shabbat, Ner Mitzva §53).
  
  – Lichvod Shabbat
  Oct 2 at 18:30
  
  

  
  
  
  


• 
  
  
  

  
  1
  

  
  
  
  
  
  

  
  
  @LichvodShabbat you don't need a clear proof if you see people originating chidushim then you know it is permitted. What is not forbidden is permitted :-> I specifically asked R Tabady why some (he included) clap hands in an indirect way on Shabbat, he said this was an explicit Shulchan Aruch, since composing songs in once's hands is not forbidden by the SA, you can be sure it is permitted
  
  – mbloch
  Oct 2 at 18:45
  

  
  
  
  


• 
  
  
  

  
  

  
  
  
  
  
  

  
  
  My question is can you bring a textual source ("clear proof") that addresses this case, and you have not brought one, only told me that I don't need one, I only need your rabbi. Maybe someone else will answer my question.
  
  – Lichvod Shabbat
  Oct 2 at 18:53
  

  
  
  
  


• 
  
  
  

  
  1
  

  
  
  
  
  
  

  
  
  @Lichvod Shabbat there are not written sources available for every possible case or situation; this is why psak exists
  
  – Josh K
  Oct 3 at 1:13
  

  
  
  
  


• 
  
  
  

  
  

  
  
  
  
  
  

  
  
  So the above answer is a psak din? I didn't think this site was a place for playing posek. Is it possible to give a source for the unsourced statement above, "Intellectual creations are not in scope of nolad"? That would suffice,
  
  – Lichvod Shabbat
  Oct 4 at 7:15
  
  

  
  
  
  

 | 
show 2 more comments

5

As you correctly write, nolad applies to physical elements and is connected to the laws of mukze, which also only applies to physical objects.

Kitzur Shulchan Aruch writes (88:4)

Nolad is something that came into being today, such as ashes from a
fire which was ignited today by a non-Jew; or an egg that was laid
today and sap running from the trees during the month of Nissan.
And even if nothing new came into being today, but came as a result of
an act which is forbidden today, such as fruit that fell from the
tree, or was plucked by a non-Jew, or milk that was milked today and
the like, are also forbidden to be handled.

Intellectual creations are not in scope of nolad. If there was a concern, it might be that one would reach out to play a musical instrument to "try out" a new melody, but this is no different from forbidding to think because one might reach out to write new thoughts.

I did check the above with R Binyamin Tabady who concurs there is no prohibition of composing new songs as long as one doesn't write them up or play them.

share|improve this answer

edited Oct 1 at 16:46

answered Sep 29 at 11:03

mblochmbloch

35.6k66 gold badges5959 silver badges164164 bronze badges

• 
  
  
  

  
  

  
  
  
  
  
  

  
  
  Thank you all. We have no clear proof yet from a textual source; the Kitzur doesn't mention the permissibility of immaterial creations. This is the closest thing I've found so far, but it is from Kabbala, not halacha, and regarding chidushim in Torah (of course also not written down; I didn't think I would need to mention in my question the obvious lack of writing): Zohar (3, 173:1) states that on Saturday night, after the neshama yeteira returns to heaven, God asks what ĥidushim each Jew innovated that Shabbat with the help of his neshama yeteira (Shlah, Masekhet Shabbat, Ner Mitzva §53).
  
  – Lichvod Shabbat
  Oct 2 at 18:30
  
  

  
  
  
  


• 
  
  
  

  
  1
  

  
  
  
  
  
  

  
  
  @LichvodShabbat you don't need a clear proof if you see people originating chidushim then you know it is permitted. What is not forbidden is permitted :-> I specifically asked R Tabady why some (he included) clap hands in an indirect way on Shabbat, he said this was an explicit Shulchan Aruch, since composing songs in once's hands is not forbidden by the SA, you can be sure it is permitted
  
  – mbloch
  Oct 2 at 18:45
  

  
  
  
  


• 
  
  
  

  
  

  
  
  
  
  
  

  
  
  My question is can you bring a textual source ("clear proof") that addresses this case, and you have not brought one, only told me that I don't need one, I only need your rabbi. Maybe someone else will answer my question.
  
  – Lichvod Shabbat
  Oct 2 at 18:53
  

  
  
  
  


• 
  
  
  

  
  1
  

  
  
  
  
  
  

  
  
  @Lichvod Shabbat there are not written sources available for every possible case or situation; this is why psak exists
  
  – Josh K
  Oct 3 at 1:13
  

  
  
  
  


• 
  
  
  

  
  

  
  
  
  
  
  

  
  
  So the above answer is a psak din? I didn't think this site was a place for playing posek. Is it possible to give a source for the unsourced statement above, "Intellectual creations are not in scope of nolad"? That would suffice,
  
  – Lichvod Shabbat
  Oct 4 at 7:15
  
  

  
  
  
  

 | 
show 2 more comments

5

As you correctly write, nolad applies to physical elements and is connected to the laws of mukze, which also only applies to physical objects.

Kitzur Shulchan Aruch writes (88:4)

Nolad is something that came into being today, such as ashes from a
fire which was ignited today by a non-Jew; or an egg that was laid
today and sap running from the trees during the month of Nissan.
And even if nothing new came into being today, but came as a result of
an act which is forbidden today, such as fruit that fell from the
tree, or was plucked by a non-Jew, or milk that was milked today and
the like, are also forbidden to be handled.

Intellectual creations are not in scope of nolad. If there was a concern, it might be that one would reach out to play a musical instrument to "try out" a new melody, but this is no different from forbidding to think because one might reach out to write new thoughts.

I did check the above with R Binyamin Tabady who concurs there is no prohibition of composing new songs as long as one doesn't write them up or play them.

share|improve this answer

edited Oct 1 at 16:46

answered Sep 29 at 11:03

mblochmbloch

35.6k66 gold badges5959 silver badges164164 bronze badges

• 
  
  
  

  
  

  
  
  
  
  
  

  
  
  Thank you all. We have no clear proof yet from a textual source; the Kitzur doesn't mention the permissibility of immaterial creations. This is the closest thing I've found so far, but it is from Kabbala, not halacha, and regarding chidushim in Torah (of course also not written down; I didn't think I would need to mention in my question the obvious lack of writing): Zohar (3, 173:1) states that on Saturday night, after the neshama yeteira returns to heaven, God asks what ĥidushim each Jew innovated that Shabbat with the help of his neshama yeteira (Shlah, Masekhet Shabbat, Ner Mitzva §53).
  
  – Lichvod Shabbat
  Oct 2 at 18:30
  
  

  
  
  
  


• 
  
  
  

  
  1
  

  
  
  
  
  
  

  
  
  @LichvodShabbat you don't need a clear proof if you see people originating chidushim then you know it is permitted. What is not forbidden is permitted :-> I specifically asked R Tabady why some (he included) clap hands in an indirect way on Shabbat, he said this was an explicit Shulchan Aruch, since composing songs in once's hands is not forbidden by the SA, you can be sure it is permitted
  
  – mbloch
  Oct 2 at 18:45
  

  
  
  
  


• 
  
  
  

  
  

  
  
  
  
  
  

  
  
  My question is can you bring a textual source ("clear proof") that addresses this case, and you have not brought one, only told me that I don't need one, I only need your rabbi. Maybe someone else will answer my question.
  
  – Lichvod Shabbat
  Oct 2 at 18:53
  

  
  
  
  


• 
  
  
  

  
  1
  

  
  
  
  
  
  

  
  
  @Lichvod Shabbat there are not written sources available for every possible case or situation; this is why psak exists
  
  – Josh K
  Oct 3 at 1:13
  

  
  
  
  


• 
  
  
  

  
  

  
  
  
  
  
  

  
  
  So the above answer is a psak din? I didn't think this site was a place for playing posek. Is it possible to give a source for the unsourced statement above, "Intellectual creations are not in scope of nolad"? That would suffice,
  
  – Lichvod Shabbat
  Oct 4 at 7:15
  
  

  
  
  
  

 | 
show 2 more comments

As you correctly write, nolad applies to physical elements and is connected to the laws of mukze, which also only applies to physical objects.

Kitzur Shulchan Aruch writes (88:4)

Nolad is something that came into being today, such as ashes from a
fire which was ignited today by a non-Jew; or an egg that was laid
today and sap running from the trees during the month of Nissan.
And even if nothing new came into being today, but came as a result of
an act which is forbidden today, such as fruit that fell from the
tree, or was plucked by a non-Jew, or milk that was milked today and
the like, are also forbidden to be handled.

Intellectual creations are not in scope of nolad. If there was a concern, it might be that one would reach out to play a musical instrument to "try out" a new melody, but this is no different from forbidding to think because one might reach out to write new thoughts.

I did check the above with R Binyamin Tabady who concurs there is no prohibition of composing new songs as long as one doesn't write them up or play them.

share|improve this answer

edited Oct 1 at 16:46

answered Sep 29 at 11:03

mblochmbloch

35.6k66 gold badges5959 silver badges164164 bronze badges

share|improve this answer

edited Oct 1 at 16:46

answered Sep 29 at 11:03

mblochmbloch

35.6k66 gold badges5959 silver badges164164 bronze badges

answered Sep 29 at 11:03

mblochmbloch

35.6k66 gold badges5959 silver badges164164 bronze badges

answered Sep 29 at 11:03

mblochmbloch

35.6k66 gold badges5959 silver badges164164 bronze badges